Is Beilein the John L. Smith of college hoops?

[Tigers2349]

Yes from 2011-2014 he has had far more success, but how much of that was not based on a turn around win against a grossly underachieving MSU teajm (it felt like we won the Super Bowl to beat MSU at Breslin) in January 2011 as our hoops prgram was so low just winning there was a shock and we took off for a few years.

Then last year we regressed back so severely to the mean when we were irrelelvent and it was more than just injuries IMHOas we lost to NJIT and EMU before the injuries started and there is no excuses for losses to terrible mid majors with D2 talent regardless of injuries or early NBA draft picks.

I mean John L. Smith never got on a run, but he did flirt with looking good at times, but the collapses he had were so severe that MSU could not even make a bowl game when at other times they looked like they could compete against good teams and even in the game. They had us down 27-10 at the big House in 2004. Had MSU hung on and won that game instead of the Braylon Fest comeback, is it possible or even likely John L. Smith goes on to have a nice 3 year run at MSU. Where as with Beilein here, is it likely had we not pulled that stunner at the Breslin in January 2011, Beilein never leads Michigan hoops out of darkness. It seemed that game against MSU turned around Beilein;'s career at Michigan where as John L. Smith blowing a 27-10 lead against Michigan in 2004 broke his will to get on any run of success.

 

[24to12]

Yes from 2011-2014 he has had far more success, but how much of that was not based on a turn around win against a grossly underachieving MSU teajm (it felt like we won the Super Bowl to beat MSU at Breslin) in January 2011 as our hoops prgram was so low just winning there was a shock and we took off for a few years.

Then last year we regressed back so severely to the mean when we were irrelelvent and it was more than just injuries IMHOas we lost to NJIT and EMU before the injuries started and there is no excuses for losses to terrible mid majors with D2 talent regardless of injuries or early NBA draft picks.

I mean John L. Smith never got on a run, but he did flirt with looking good at times, but the collapses he had were so severe that MSU could not even make a bowl game when at other times they looked like they could compete against good teams and even in the game. They had us down 27-10 at the big House in 2004. Had MSU hung on and won that game instead of the Braylon Fest comeback, is it possible or even likely John L. Smith goes on to have a nice 3 year run at MSU. Where as with Beilein here, is it likely had we not pulled that stunner at the Breslin in January 2011, Beilein never leads Michigan hoops out of darkness. It seemed that game against MSU turned around Beilein;'s career at Michigan where as John L. Smith blowing a 27-10 lead against Michigan in 2004 broke his will to get on any run of success.

No matter how good someone is as a "coach," he still has to recruit 2-3 top players every year to be competitive at the top of the conference. It does not appear that JB is doing that right now. Of course, you can recruit top players and fail to coach them: that was more John L. Smith's problem. It's not JB's problem.

 

[CaliforniaGreen1]

No matter how good someone is as a "coach," he still has to recruit 2-3 top players every year to be competitive at the top of the conference. It does not appear that JB is doing that right now. Of course, you can recruit top players and fail to coach them: that was more John L. Smith's problem. It's not JB's problem.

The original post is ridiculous, but John L. Smith was not a good recruiter (classes typically ranked in the 40s and 50s).

 

[blockm2]

Yes from 2011-2014 he has had far more success, but how much of that was not based on a turn around win against a grossly underachieving MSU teajm (it felt like we won the Super Bowl to beat MSU at Breslin) in January 2011 as our hoops prgram was so low just winning there was a shock and we took off for a few years.

Then last year we regressed back so severely to the mean when we were irrelelvent and it was more than just injuries IMHOas we lost to NJIT and EMU before the injuries started and there is no excuses for losses to terrible mid majors with D2 talent regardless of injuries or early NBA draft picks.

I mean John L. Smith never got on a run, but he did flirt with looking good at times, but the collapses he had were so severe that MSU could not even make a bowl game when at other times they looked like they could compete against good teams and even in the game. They had us down 27-10 at the big House in 2004. Had MSU hung on and won that game instead of the Braylon Fest comeback, is it possible or even likely John L. Smith goes on to have a nice 3 year run at MSU. Where as with Beilein here, is it likely had we not pulled that stunner at the Breslin in January 2011, Beilein never leads Michigan hoops out of darkness. It seemed that game against MSU turned around Beilein;'s career at Michigan where as John L. Smith blowing a 27-10 lead against Michigan in 2004 broke his will to get on any run of success.

literally crazy talk

 

[ThatsMrSpartan2U]

Beilein is a much better basketball coach than Smith was a football coach.
Beilein is much smarter and I'm assuming much better manager of his money and his program, as well.

Just me, but until UM builds a new basketball arena and really supercharges it's basketball facilities it's going to be tough to get a consistent pipeline of top players to AA.

Crisler Arena was outdated 20 yrs ago. There's just so much renovation you can do. Beilein can coach. UM has some legacy to it. But honestly, IMHO, UM has not prioritized hoops like it has FB. It's always been FB there. I suspect to a lot of recruits it just doesn't seem like Bball is anywhere near as important to the university as The Big House and Harbaugh and .......

I think Crean and IU are in a similar boat. That arena and their past successes are ancient history to these kids today. You can't let one or two seasons of success fade. It's a brutal business getting recruits year after year after year. Judd Heathcoat was as good a coach as there ever was but he wasn't a touchy, feely recruiter and he played in a barn. Crean to me is more like Heathcoat than Izzo. Beilein reminds me a little of Johnny Orr. A really good guy and coach, but just not edgy enough to keep kids wanting to come to AA and play.....at......Crisler.

 

[Tigers2349]

Beilein is a much better basketball coach than Smith was a football coach.
Beilein is much smarter and I'm assuming much better manager of his money and his program, as well.

Just me, but until UM builds a new basketball arena and really supercharges it's basketball facilities it's going to be tough to get a consistent pipeline of top players to AA.

Crisler Arena was outdated 20 yrs ago. There's just so much renovation you can do. Beilein can coach. UM has some legacy to it. But honestly, IMHO, UM has not prioritized hoops like it has FB. It's always been FB there. I suspect to a lot of recruits it just doesn't seem like Bball is anywhere near as important to the university as The Big House and Harbaugh and .......

I think Crean and IU are in a similar boat. That arena and their past successes are ancient history to these kids today. You can't let one or two seasons of success fade. It's a brutal business getting recruits year after year after year. Judd Heathcoat was as good a coach as there ever was but he wasn't a touchy, feely recruiter and he played in a barn. Crean to me is more like Heathcoat than Izzo. Beilein reminds me a little of Johnny Orr. A really good guy and coach, but just not edgy enough to keep kids wanting to come to AA and play.....at......Crisler.

We had a massive renovation of Crisler Center and built a very nice practice facility. I a not sure that is the problem.

Yeah Beilein is I am sure way better at managing money than JLS and probably much smarter overall as a coach, but the comparisons are valid in terms of Beilein running a unique system like John L. Smith based on mostly offense and not much defense and it being a finesse style of ball and not hating the other in state rival enough and having a tough SOB attitude. He seems to be too classy to other coaches when he should be more a tough SOB. John L. Smith was kind of the same way, but likely much worse because he couldn't control himself or his players. Beilein can control his players, but it seems more through politics and ensuring they fit his system rather than the UofM MSU rivalry being personal for him or getting his players to be physical when needed.

 

[ThatsMrSpartan2U]

Not trying to start a fight. No comparison, really, between Beilein and Smith. "All things reveal themselves, in time." And Smith has been revealed as not being anywhere near the coach/character he was thought to be.

Beilein is a fine person and coach. I think, like Izzo, he respects his opponents and colleagues and enjoys a terrific and much deserved reputation. I don't know if that makes much difference to a lot of recruits.

I don't think he is anyway near done having success as a coach or at UM. I will stick with my humble opinion that UMs FB legacy and the pedestrian Crisler Arena are persistent obstacles to Bball recruiting in AA. I can't foresee a time when hoops and FB will ever be on common ground in AA. I think at MSU the two programs run almost like a team of husky Percherons hauling the university forward. Dantonio and Izzo are sort of joined at the hip. They have genuine rapport and go out of their way to help each other recruit. Not being critical, but Harbaugh and Beilein seem cut from completely different bolts of cloth.

Wait til Izzo retires. I doubt MSU will be able to maintain its Bball chops with anyone else. It seems to me NC, Kansas, Kentucky and Duke might be the only legacy programs in college hoops....for now. I think Izzo wants to leave MSU up there too, but I have my doubts.

Same with FB. If Dantonio is Biggie Munn building a 21st Century version of Biggie's 1950s Spartans....who will be his Duffy? Fortunately for Spartan fans we don't have to worry about that for awhile.

In hoops, UConn was all Calhoun and even as Ollie has a great UConn pedigree, I doubt he'll ever be able to maintain the level of success JC did. Syracuse is fading. UCLA already has. Building and maintaining powerhouse Bball and FB juggernauts is unbelievably hard.

 

[ThatsMrSpartan2U]

BTW....Happy Thanksgiving to all.

 

[Reality Man]

I have said this before...I really like the JB system. Entertaining and it works WHEN he has guys who are tough enough at the #4 (Irvin is tough enough) and his guys can put the ball in the hoop. The big problem right NOW...at this moment is his players are scoring.

Really simple. So obvious. Not difficult at all to understand. You can complain about the #5 but it comes down to this..

1. Irvin isn't scoring
2. Chatman can't score (got the bust label on him right now)
3. Dawkins (inconsistent)
4. Robinson (to be determined..but optimistic).

Irvin, Dawkins and Robinson HAVE to SCORE. End of story. They don't score UM loses. The JB system has to have scoring from the #3 & #4 spots. That simple. In fact...the JB system needs consistent scoring from the perimeter from the #1,2,3 &4 and some supplemental stuff from the #5. He has 2 of those spots doing okay but the #3, 4 & 5 are falling way way short.



RM

 

[BlueCoral]

Beilein likes middle of the road talented guys that he can coach up. He doesn't like the top tier guys because they are hard to deal with. Look at the recruits coming in next year, one top 50 guy, and 3 others ranked outside the top 100. That won't cut it in the big ten

 

[maelfan]

Yes from 2011-2014 he has had far more success, but how much of that was not based on a turn around win against a grossly underachieving MSU teajm (it felt like we won the Super Bowl to beat MSU at Breslin) in January 2011 as our hoops prgram was so low just winning there was a shock and we took off for a few years.

Then last year we regressed back so severely to the mean when we were irrelelvent and it was more than just injuries IMHOas we lost to NJIT and EMU before the injuries started and there is no excuses for losses to terrible mid majors with D2 talent regardless of injuries or early NBA draft picks.

I mean John L. Smith never got on a run, but he did flirt with looking good at times, but the collapses he had were so severe that MSU could not even make a bowl game when at other times they looked like they could compete against good teams and even in the game. They had us down 27-10 at the big House in 2004. Had MSU hung on and won that game instead of the Braylon Fest comeback, is it possible or even likely John L. Smith goes on to have a nice 3 year run at MSU. Where as with Beilein here, is it likely had we not pulled that stunner at the Breslin in January 2011, Beilein never leads Michigan hoops out of darkness. It seemed that game against MSU turned around Beilein;'s career at Michigan where as John L. Smith blowing a 27-10 lead against Michigan in 2004 broke his will to get on any run of success.

Maybe MSU, with top 5-10 classes every year was underachieving because coaches like Beilein, Matta, Ryan, etc.. were outcoaching Izzo? Beilein and UM have been as successful or almost as successful as Tom Izzo for 5 years now, including not crying about injuries like Izzo would have 24/7 last year under the cirucumstances Beilein dealt with.

 

[Reality Man]

Beilein likes middle of the road talented guys that he can coach up. He doesn't like the top tier guys because they are hard to deal with. Look at the recruits coming in next year, one top 50 guy, and 3 others ranked outside the top 100. That won't cut it in the big ten

I think JB just doesn't like having to play all the games to get the top guys. I also think the lesser rated guys are more receptive to being coached up and JB doesn't have to undue their bad habits.

I think JB is a mediocre recruiter which has been his label going back to WVU. Sure seems to be true. He can scout and evaluate for the most part...very well.


RM

 

[Lake Tahoe Spartan]

Yes from 2011-2014 he has had far more success, but how much of that was not based on a turn around win against a grossly underachieving MSU teajm (it felt like we won the Super Bowl to beat MSU at Breslin) in January 2011 as our hoops prgram was so low just winning there was a shock and we took off for a few years.

Then last year we regressed back so severely to the mean when we were irrelelvent and it was more than just injuries IMHOas we lost to NJIT and EMU before the injuries started and there is no excuses for losses to terrible mid majors with D2 talent regardless of injuries or early NBA draft picks.

I mean John L. Smith never got on a run, but he did flirt with looking good at times, but the collapses he had were so severe that MSU could not even make a bowl game when at other times they looked like they could compete against good teams and even in the game. They had us down 27-10 at the big House in 2004. Had MSU hung on and won that game instead of the Braylon Fest comeback, is it possible or even likely John L. Smith goes on to have a nice 3 year run at MSU. Where as with Beilein here, is it likely had we not pulled that stunner at the Breslin in January 2011, Beilein never leads Michigan hoops out of darkness. It seemed that game against MSU turned around Beilein;'s career at Michigan where as John L. Smith blowing a 27-10 lead against Michigan in 2004 broke his will to get on any run of success.

I don't agree, John Beilein is a good coach. He is one of the few coaches that scares me as a Michigan State fan. When Izzo started to have success. He set a standard on how to win by building a program that was about rebounding, defense and toughness. John Beilein comes in and goes against the script. With a more free flowing, high field gold percentage and low turnovers style. This also has proven to be a very good system, and a very good antidote for the MSU's of the world. When Beilein has his players there is no limit for success.

 

[Reality Man]

Lets look just over the past week. Doyle is limited and struggled. Irvin struggled. Dawkins struggled. Leave off recruiting prowess but that is a recipe for disaster for the JB system.

Next two games. (I understand the talent differential). Wagner comes in and is clearly an upgrade from Doyle. Irvin starts contributing and Dawkins/Robinson play well.

There you go. If JB gets production from the #5, #4 and especially the #3 then JB teams can play with anyone.

It's all about JB evaluating/scouting guys who can get the job done. His system works with the right talent just like the Izzo system when he has guys.



RM

 

[blockm2]

I will stick with my humble opinion that UMs FB legacy and the pedestrian Crisler Arena are persistent obstacles to Bball recruiting in AA.

Michigan's hoops facilities have been better than MSU's since the massive renovation 3 years ago and construction of the new Player Development Center. Not even much of a question. Much newer stuff than MSU's. It isn't Kentucky, but other than that it's about as good as you can find anywhere else in the country. I'm assuming you haven't been to a game since prior to all the construction/renovation. Also, have you not been to Breslin? It was excellent when it opened in the late 80s, but not exactly world class at this point.