OSU, MSU, UM are probably the top 3 teams in the BIG, all in the East. Wisconsin and Iowa lead the West and I think everyone here would agree that the East trio would beat the West pretty regularly. It doesn't look any easier for West to improve as rapidly as the East regenerates. So why not reshuffle the divisions to bring more balance. Outside of MSU and OSU and maybe Minn., UM has no other natural opponents (well maybe PSU). What do you think?
Should BIG reshuffle the divisions?
- Thread starter ArrowheadBlue
- Start date
Id like a more balanced split but looking back the big 12 north was crap for a long time and it never really hurt them. The rose bowl tie in might make it worse for the big ten but time will tell. I dont forsee too many years in the near future where the east champ will have the same or better record than the 2nd place in the west. And if they do they deserve to go to rb all they can do is beat the teams on their schedule. Most years the best team in the east wont not play any of the 3 best teams either.
Agree with arrowhead blue for once. Split Michigan and Ohio state, MSU and Wisconsin, and PSU and Nebraska.
It'd be nice to find a way to tell Rutgers to scram, while we're at it
It'd be nice to find a way to tell Rutgers to scram, while we're at it
No. They tried that before with the Leaders/Legends split and it was a bad idea. Geography is the way to go even if the divisions end up a little imbalanced.
The real issue isn't the alignment, it's that Wisconsin is too cheap to retain its coaches and Nebraska is too incompetent to hire a good one. Eventually they'll hire competent athletic directors and get it together.
The real issue isn't the alignment, it's that Wisconsin is too cheap to retain its coaches and Nebraska is too incompetent to hire a good one. Eventually they'll hire competent athletic directors and get it together.
You think Wiscy and Nebraska have the present day ability to go out and get high level talent. Throw in Iowa.
I am not saying that any of those 3 teams won't be very good or great on occasion but consistently the East is going to beat the West. Maybe not every year...but probably 8 out of every 10 times in the championship game.
The East has too much firepower. They do. OSU is going to be consistently the most talented team up there with PSU/UM. These 3 programs have an advantage over anyone in the West because of Ohio/PA and the fact that UM has national recruiting prowess. Even MSU has the ability to get guys from Ohio (proximity).
What does Iowa get to do? Nebraska? Are they raiding Florida, Texas or CA like the old days. There was an article talking about how players can't just go take unofficials to Nebraska because of it's location. Wisconsin is in Wisconsin
. Not saying there aren't some good players in the state of WI.
Problem is that the East has the significant advantages including the fact that they can get into the East recruiting fertile areas because of Maryland and Rutgers.
Here is my prediction. The Big Ten will revisit this issue especially with the tie-ins. If the Big Ten puts in a loophole where the 2nd place team in the East could (based on rankings) could leapfrog the West representative then I think the problem is solved.
RM
I am not saying that any of those 3 teams won't be very good or great on occasion but consistently the East is going to beat the West. Maybe not every year...but probably 8 out of every 10 times in the championship game.
The East has too much firepower. They do. OSU is going to be consistently the most talented team up there with PSU/UM. These 3 programs have an advantage over anyone in the West because of Ohio/PA and the fact that UM has national recruiting prowess. Even MSU has the ability to get guys from Ohio (proximity).
What does Iowa get to do? Nebraska? Are they raiding Florida, Texas or CA like the old days. There was an article talking about how players can't just go take unofficials to Nebraska because of it's location. Wisconsin is in Wisconsin
. Not saying there aren't some good players in the state of WI.Problem is that the East has the significant advantages including the fact that they can get into the East recruiting fertile areas because of Maryland and Rutgers.
Here is my prediction. The Big Ten will revisit this issue especially with the tie-ins. If the Big Ten puts in a loophole where the 2nd place team in the East could (based on rankings) could leapfrog the West representative then I think the problem is solved.
RM
I don't see why this is a problem. The SEC West is better than the East and no one cares. Trying to gerrymander the divisions to get "balance" is ridiculous. MSU was a last-place team under John L. Smith. If they return to their historic mediocrity after Dantonio, are we going to have to realign once more?
The current setup is best option there is. At the end of the day, with the conference title game, you can't hide - if you're the champ of the West, you've still got to play the East champ. If your concern is the bowl matchups, just change the rules about bowl selection.
The current setup is best option there is. At the end of the day, with the conference title game, you can't hide - if you're the champ of the West, you've still got to play the East champ. If your concern is the bowl matchups, just change the rules about bowl selection.
Glad you brought up the SEC. Florida is in the East division along with Missouri.
Would you consider that some form of gerrymandering? The SEC did that for a reason...to keep Florida and Alabama in different divisions which was smart. The Big Ten will have to deal with the MASSIVE power imbalance in the BT sooner or later.
I don't know the exact solution but I think the tie-ins are the best way to start. Don't just reward one division for getting to the championship game.
RM
Would you consider that some form of gerrymandering? The SEC did that for a reason...to keep Florida and Alabama in different divisions which was smart. The Big Ten will have to deal with the MASSIVE power imbalance in the BT sooner or later.
I don't know the exact solution but I think the tie-ins are the best way to start. Don't just reward one division for getting to the championship game.
RM
You have four historically outstanding programs in the BIG (UM, OSU, PSU, and Nebraska). In all likelihood those teams will continue being great for years to come (there are always fluctuations, but we are talking decades of excellence reaching back 50 years). Those four should be split evenly (UM/OSU in one division, PSU & Neb in the other). I know, it makes no geographical sense, but that's why we invented airplanes for travel a century ago.
Work from there to preserve historical rivalries where possible (UM & MSU in the same division, same with Purdue and Indiana, ensure Minny & UM play across inter-division games if at all possible, Iowa v. Wisky, etc.) The rest is window dressing, it's really that simple. The divisions now make little sense except geographically. I'd even split Rutgers and Maryland into separate divisions just to give the "other" division east coast exposure.
Work from there to preserve historical rivalries where possible (UM & MSU in the same division, same with Purdue and Indiana, ensure Minny & UM play across inter-division games if at all possible, Iowa v. Wisky, etc.) The rest is window dressing, it's really that simple. The divisions now make little sense except geographically. I'd even split Rutgers and Maryland into separate divisions just to give the "other" division east coast exposure.
Yale and Princeton were outstanding for decades. 43 national championships between those two Ivy League schools. Of course, the last one was 1935, and who in their right minds would would put any importance on wins from 80+ years ago?
It makes sense logically just not geographically.. I think it's fine though... the B1G East is like the SEC West. You win it, you should be the favorite to win the B1G and make the playoffs...
So (and this doesn't even factor in including OSU's South Bend Bitches-who knows what the future holds
)...Leaders Division
OSU
UM
MSU
Maryland
Purdue
Indiana
Northwestern
Legends Division
PSU
Nebraska
Iowa
Wisconsin
Rutgers
Minnesota
Illinois
Yes D.J. I like that split. Love your line...that is why we invented air travel . A&M is in the SEC for goodness sakes. Isn't WVU in the Big 12? Geez...the Big Ten is a Midwest conference and now has a team on the Atlantic coast line right?
So clearly geography isn't that important across the country.
RM
. A&M is in the SEC for goodness sakes. Isn't WVU in the Big 12? Geez...the Big Ten is a Midwest conference and now has a team on the Atlantic coast line right?So clearly geography isn't that important across the country.
RM
So (and this doesn't even factor in including OSU's South Bend Bitches-who knows what the future holds
Leaders Division
OSU
UM
MSU
Maryland
Purdue
Indiana
Northwestern
Legends Division
PSU
Nebraska
Iowa
Wisconsin
Rutgers
Minnesota
Illinois
Not that anyone necessarily cares --- but that's a horrible split from the Penn State POV. A school with their alums centered in the mid-Atlantic region shouldn't be in a division where 83% of the non-PSU membership is on the west side of Lake Michigan. Also, we want to play OSU and Michigan every year, they are big visibility games and good for us long-term.
I've said this before and I got laughed at a bit, but I do believe this. In ~ 20 years, the B1G will split, and it will be the (mostly) eastern B1G schools, Notre Dame, and select ACC schools ganging together to form their own conference. Some combination of:
(a) Notre Dame, and
(b) OSU, U-M, MSU, Penn State, Maryland, Rutgers, Indiana, Illinois, Northwestern, and
(c) Pittsburgh, Boston College, Duke, North Carolina, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Virginia, Miami FLA.
The power and the $$$$ in the B1G is in the East, and I think it will just get more and more lopsided over time.
There will be no realignment until the BIG goes to 16 teams. It will depend on who is added and then a realignment is possible. There are protected games that can be played every year and then balance the rest of the cross overs. The East teams will resist moving, because they can recruit better being in the East Division. They are closer to talent pools than the west teams. Kids can play closer to home and it is very important to not have parents travel as much if their kids play in the west they are always on the road.
Yes, I find it amusing that Missouri is somehow in the SEC East.Yes D.J. I like that split. Love your line...that is why we invented air travel
So clearly geography isn't that important across the country.
RM
I'd add Texas and Oklahoma and drop Rutgers and Maryland. Talk about a "positive" reach. And the recruits are better in Texas than in, let's say, Maryland.
In the early years of the Big12 the North division dominated the conference at the end (before Nebraska & Colorado left) the South division dominated the conference.
When the SEC went to divisional play the East dominated the conference now the West has the upper hand.
I do believe that the Big10 West will have their runs in CCG's but it will be more 'team based' as opposed to overall strength of the division.
You simply wont see Nebraska, Wisconsin, Iowa and (Northwestern/Minnesota?) winning the conference year after year like you will see from Michigan, Ohio State, Michigan State and Penn State.
Wisconsin & Nebraska are more than capable of having a couple of great years and beat the best of the East but the its doubtful that the West could ever consistently beat the East straight up and in particular beat the UM, OSU, MSU & PSU quartet.
With that said the Big10 is going to a 9 game conference schedule meaning more opportunity for East/West games and better for the conference in general.
I don't think a reshuffle of the divisions is necessary or advisable at this time.
Lets have this discussion again in 10 years to see how things have shaken out.
Go Blue!
When the SEC went to divisional play the East dominated the conference now the West has the upper hand.
I do believe that the Big10 West will have their runs in CCG's but it will be more 'team based' as opposed to overall strength of the division.
You simply wont see Nebraska, Wisconsin, Iowa and (Northwestern/Minnesota?) winning the conference year after year like you will see from Michigan, Ohio State, Michigan State and Penn State.
Wisconsin & Nebraska are more than capable of having a couple of great years and beat the best of the East but the its doubtful that the West could ever consistently beat the East straight up and in particular beat the UM, OSU, MSU & PSU quartet.
With that said the Big10 is going to a 9 game conference schedule meaning more opportunity for East/West games and better for the conference in general.
I don't think a reshuffle of the divisions is necessary or advisable at this time.
Lets have this discussion again in 10 years to see how things have shaken out.
Go Blue!
Seems too logical to me. Never happen.You think Wiscy and Nebraska have the present day ability to go out and get high level talent. Throw in Iowa.
I am not saying that any of those 3 teams won't be very good or great on occasion but consistently the East is going to beat the West. Maybe not every year...but probably 8 out of every 10 times in the championship game.
The East has too much firepower. They do. OSU is going to be consistently the most talented team up there with PSU/UM. These 3 programs have an advantage over anyone in the West because of Ohio/PA and the fact that UM has national recruiting prowess. Even MSU has the ability to get guys from Ohio (proximity).
What does Iowa get to do? Nebraska? Are they raiding Florida, Texas or CA like the old days. There was an article talking about how players can't just go take unofficials to Nebraska because of it's location. Wisconsin is in Wisconsin
Problem is that the East has the significant advantages including the fact that they can get into the East recruiting fertile areas because of Maryland and Rutgers.
Here is my prediction. The Big Ten will revisit this issue especially with the tie-ins. If the Big Ten puts in a loophole where the 2nd place team in the East could (based on rankings) could leapfrog the West representative then I think the problem is solved.
RM
Fine, so take Rutgers and Maryland with you and trade off others to the east, the priority is to maintain 50-100 year old rivalries and split the historical powers evenly between divisions. Revised breakout:
Leaders Division
OSU
UM
MSU
Minnesota
Purdue
Indiana
Northwestern
Legends Division
PSU
Nebraska
Iowa
Wisconsin
Rutgers
Illinois
Maryland
I have no doubt this looks good from your Michigan-centric POV.
As for some of the others:
PSU, Rutgers and Maryland --- 67% of their division games against schools west of Lake Michigan? That's not appealing.
Iowa and Wisconsin --- why are they split off from Minnesota? All so you can preserve the "Little Brown Jug" rivalry? Michigan/Minnesota stopped being an annual rivalry 18-years ago. I have no doubt that if you ask a Minnesota fan, they value their rivalries against Iowa & Wisconsin more so than they care about Michigan. (they all play for trophies too)
Minnesota --- in addition to the above, they are already a 7-hour drive from Chicago. Northwestern is now their CLOSEST division mate. 83% of their division foes are east of Lake Michigan. This is less appealing for them vs. the present.
So, much as this plan works for you: there are 6 schools it does not work for. Whether you like it or not, you have 13 partners in this conference. You have to work WITH them, as opposed to thinking their concerns are secondary to your own.
But I know --- you think that "all animals are created equal, except some animals are more equal than others."
The current plan is the best plan.
Let me state the obvious, PSU, Maryland, and Rutgers have no real, historical BIG rivalries, so they have to adjust, simple as that, and in our day of the marvel of jet planes, rivalries can be created ex nihilo. I just threw Minnesota out there, because if you know your Big 10 history, it was a very significant rivalry for 100+ years regardless of the idiocy of past realignments that pushed the continuity of the game off the schedule. Did you watch the game this year, that's indicative of it's importance to both schools and that sort of tradition is worth preserving? The Minnesota folks are free to weigh in on how important, vis a vis Wisky and Iowa, the Michigan game is to them.
Pick your school setup, I'm just arguing for evenly splitting the historical powers (for now, PSU, Neb, OSU, and UM) into separate divisions) and the maximal preservation of rivalries, not how close schools are to each other. If you want to call that UM centric and misquote Animal Farm, feel free to do so, but it's simply unwise to ignore historical trends of football powers. This current setup puts 75% of the great BIG programs in the last 60 years into one division, that makes no sense and sets us up for the East being the beast and the West not so much.
Pick your school setup, I'm just arguing for evenly splitting the historical powers (for now, PSU, Neb, OSU, and UM) into separate divisions) and the maximal preservation of rivalries, not how close schools are to each other. If you want to call that UM centric and misquote Animal Farm, feel free to do so, but it's simply unwise to ignore historical trends of football powers. This current setup puts 75% of the great BIG programs in the last 60 years into one division, that makes no sense and sets us up for the East being the beast and the West not so much.
Oh, and obviously stated, the three eastern schools are outliers, not close to anyone, so there is no natural affinity or rivalry to appeal to. PSU vs UM has been great, it made BWI what it is today , but both schools would survive without it. I just do not want one heavily weighted conference with three, huge historically great programs vs the other division with just Nebraska.
, but both schools would survive without it. I just do not want one heavily weighted conference with three, huge historically great programs vs the other division with just Nebraska.Rutgers, Maryland, Nebraska and Penn State are now FULL PARTNERS with the original Big Ten schools. We're all co-owners of a valuable TV network. Like it or not, that is a fact.
The incumbent B1G schools have to adjust to the newcomers too. If the incumbent schools didn't want to adjust, why the hell did they send out invites?!?!?
The current divisional set-up. Nothing else works better for everyone. Nothing.
Michigan definitely benefits from being in the East too. Many U-M alums live out east, there is more $ and power in the east, Michigan is already reaping a lot of New Jersey football recruits, et cetera.
I don't think I misquoted Animal Farm. I am talking about you, not Michigan. I do believe you are a Michigan fan who views your favorite school as Snowball. "More equal" than Boxer.
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Okay, so much for interacting with my central thesis, all of what you type of course is true and valid, set down your cynical suspicion that this is just about UM. It's also about not making one of our two divisions into Popeye-like, forearm strong while the other looks like Olive Oil's.
This year, but they skipped the true power of the east, that would have been Stanford-like, not pretty for Iowa.
Yep. The West is 14-14 in regular season games in the 2014-2015 time period against the East.
Really doesn't look that "unequal" to me.
Your "central thesis" is that the divisions need re-shuffling.
OK, fair enough.
My "central thesis" is that there is NO re-shuffling (vs. the current) that the vast majority of the B1G would be happy with.
You need to find a re-shuffling which the vast majority of the B1G would be happy with. Your most recent proposal: at least 6 B1G schools would object.
The setup is perfect for the teams. Nebraska should be playing all our neighbors every year...same division makes sense....just like it makes sense for Michigan to play it's neighbors...
I don't want Rutgers/maryland in our division...does not make sense...
SEC did east/west
Pac does north/south...
I don't want Rutgers/maryland in our division...does not make sense...
SEC did east/west
Pac does north/south...
My plan mostly puts Nebraska vs neighbors, but we disagree, fair enough.
I disagree about Rutgers, Maryland too. It could be argued, if it were not for Rutgers and New Jersey, we would not have 5 going on 6 recruits committed from New Jersey.
Just love it when a PSU fan wants to tell the Big Ten what to do. Ignore historic rivalries to please PSU ?? No way. Concentrate on PSU problems.
As I said --- there are five non-PSU schools that would have issues with detroitjohn's division re-shuffling.
And Nebraska isn't among those five: yet we also have a Nebraska fan here with issues. So it could be six.
This is not simply "a PSU fan telling the B1G what to do." You're missing the bigger picture.
You should be happy with my suggestion I think the current alignment guarantees PSU has a much tougher road to championships unlike the hubris I remember hearing from your base in the early 90s that you would own the conference.
As I said before, PSU admins, PSU coaches, most of our fan base and me personally want to keep the current set-up. We want to be in the same division with U-M and OSU.
The current division provides annual high-profile match-ups that are well-liked and easy to travel to. PSU fans regularly interact with and encounter U-M, OSU, MSU, Rutgers and Maryland alums. The same dynamic simply doesn't exist between PSU and the schools west of Chicago.
