This should be fun. Only about Irvin...

[Reality Man]

I couldn't disagree more with this following opinion regarding Irvin.


Irvin at this point is an above average college player lacking NBA speed, or athleticism. Some guys said that this off season and got downvoted to oblivion. He has 1 really good skill and thats shooting. Which is a valued skill in the NBA. But he doesnt have the ability to create his own shot so you see what happened to Nik. Nik is a better shooter - but Nik is having trouble creating his own shot with the level of athleticism in the NBA. And Nik actually has a game in the lane and ability to drive at the NCAA level. Something Irvin is just now beginning to develop - slowly



This really dawned on me after the MSU game. Irvin has big time talent. His upside is enormous. The MAIN problem with Irvin isn't his developing ability but his shot form which is causing all sorts of problems at this level. Let me explain.

LeVERT & Walton were making fun of Irvin in the offseason because of his form. It's not that it's ugly but its undermining his ability to shoot from the perimeter. Its' why he has so so many bad shots. He is arguably more talented than Stauskas but not as fundamentally sound on his shot.

In high school...Irvin could get away with that form because his defenders weren't as quick and tall so he never had to redirect his shot. Watch him against better teams...the size of the defenders allow them to get a hand in the direction of his shot. He has to redirect the shot...by launching it higher...hence many air balls and bricks.

His shot is basically 'chucking' the ball. Watch his free throws. He shot looks more volatile than Shaq back in the day.


The point being made here is that JB is going to have to overhaul this shot. It's the form that is causing the problems..not his mental makeup, his talent or quickness or his overall improvement. He can't get away with his form consistently and this level and won't at the NBA level if he ever was allowed to play a game.

He has LeVERT talent...He has Stauskas talent. He just doesn't have their quality shot foundation.

Give me an argument of why (leave off shot) of why Irvin isn't as talented as any of the other two down the line.



Reality Man

 

[Mroad]

RM, I completely disagree that Irvin has big time talent. He is a streaky shooter that is not a very good ballhandler and struggles taking the ball to the basket and finishing. He is not the biggest, strongest or fastest player on our mediocre roster right now. He has had some big games because he is given the green light to shoot whenever he wants but I've never seen a player that is considered to be a "shooter" that has such an ugly shot which causes about 30% of his shots to be way off...like airballs or total bricks. I hope like heck he keeps improving but I think you have some wishful thinking stating he has big time talent. As someone that played college basketball and has followed college basketball for 35 years I totally see him being a support player and not even close to an NBA type talent.

 

[Reality Man]

Mroad....I disagree. ...

I don't think we are watching the same games. Can Irvin play some defense (rebounding, etc.)...Yes. Better than Stauskas but not as well as LeVERT.

Can Irvin take it to the hoop. Yes. We he get better at it...Yes. Irvin has a high ceiling but only if shot form is drastically changed.

Irvin fails consistently because he consistently shoots poorly...not because of his talent or his inability to drive to the hoop. He has improved his mindset but unless that shot form changes...he isn't going anywhere.

Question Mroad. Ever wonder why Irvin loves to launch long 3 point shots?
Answer: It's easier to get the long shot process off with less defensive resistance.



Reality Man

 

[wolverines74]

Irvin to me is a good player with no help and so he is tight, pressing


and can't play relaxed in a BB sense. If he was to stay ( next season) and we surround him with talent like the past ,he will be so much the better. It is very hard to play when you look around , and in your own mind, feel uncomfortable and not in rhythm with so many young players who are even more unsteady.

Bring back those 2 injured, bring up the team which is learning this season and we WILL SEE a much better Basketball player. IMHO! "74

 

[Mroad]

RM, we will just have to agree to disagree on this matter. I think Irvin is a decent player but I don't see elite D1 athleticism, ballhandling, shooting or offensive creativity. That doesn't mean I don't think he can help our team but I think many UM basketball fans were concerned he would leave early for the NBA and I just don't see him being close to an NBA type player at this point...and he would need significant improvement to make an NBA roster down the road. He seems like a good, hardworking kid so I'm hoping he keeps improving as a player.

 

[Reality Man]

To the both of you..


I could use the excuse of Irvin trying to do to much...but I don't honestly see that. I see improvement in trying to diversify his game but he still needs lots of work. He isn't going anywhere. He has a #1 option mindset. He wants to be the main scorer (like a Stauskas)...the opposite of a G3R3.

Stauskas is no more aggressive or talented than Irvin but his foundation for shooting is solid hence his high end play in college.

I see Irvin only getting better taking it to the rim, etc. However, every ounce of improvement is going to be offset by a guy who is literally shooting with one arm tied behind his back. Just think if I went to Glen Rice and asked him to shoot underhanded from the perimeter. Probably wouldn't do as well. I am being funny but you get the point. Just watch Irvin during the game...it's not his inability to get separation or lift...it's his form (low release) that makes him very inefficient.

He has two years left...so they better get with the program and alter the release and shot.




Reality Man

 

[Mroad]

Irvin has some major flaws in his shooting form....which is the reason he shoots a pretty high percentage of ugly shots (air balls or complete bricks) compared to most outside shooters. Heck, he even gets his three point shot blocked an unusually high percentage of times....twice towards the end of one of our close games a week or two ago. His outside shooting is erratic because his form is just not good. So, his strength is supposed to be his outside shooting but he has some major issues with his shot which is the reason I don't consider him an elite D1 player and more of a support player. I'd love to see him come in next year and be a much improved all around player....better shooter, better ballhandler and better taking the ball to the basket. You bring up Nik as a comparison but Nik had textbook shooting form and became very good taking the ball to the basket in his sophomore year. Nik either nailed his shots or barely missed...it was very rare that he missed shots badly. I don't see the comparison at all.

 

[CinciBlue]

He doesnt need to change his shot.

And frankly, being a sophomore in major college it is too late for that. He has what he has.

what he needs to do is be more confident and improve the rest of his game. He has enough athletic ability to drive the ball, and has shown a propensity at times to do it. Problem is, he doesnt do it enough. I think that is because he sorely needs to improve his ball handling. That is something that he can improve in college. He is never going to be Trey Burke, but he can become Stauskas.

he has zero confidence, but you can see the ability he has. I don't know if JB can harness that or not. I think he can.

Shawn Marion has had a long productive NBA career with one of the worst "jumpers" I have ever seen. Let's be clear, i'm not saying that ZI can be Marion, but he can certainly do other things to make him a more complete player in college. Overhauling a jumper is not something he or Beilien should even entertain. It's too late.

 

[Reality Man]

First, let's talk about Stu. He had a beautiful looking shot but

in all honesty...he was streaky as hell early in his career. He became more consistent and JB reigned him in when he realized he would shoot UM in and out of certain games.

Irvin isn't even in that class but can do other things to score. Irvin is wild...which is putting it mildly. He hurts UM more than he helps but is getting better because he realizes he just can't keep missing. This is good coaching and now Irvin does more things and recognizes when he is hurting his team. Kudos to staff and to Irvin.

Now to Cinci. It isn't too late. I am not saying overhaul the shot completely or make a minor modification but somewhere in between. Raise the release point at least. An overhaul is needed.

Let me put it this way. Is Irvin going to get better taking the ball to the hoop. Yes. His improvement is evident in my eyes and has lot's of work to do. But what is the harm in tweaking his shot on a significant level...is he going to shoot substantially worse going forward after modifications?

Irvin is shooting 3 for his last 12 at the line. 25%. That is bad anyway you want to slice it.

Today he got some layups..diversifying his game. Congrats to Irvin for putting in the hard work and listening to coaches but his 3 pt shot % is still not very impressive or any of his other perimeter shots. Take the layups out of the equation...I bet he might be shooting barely 30% from the floor. Why not try it? Can he shoot any worse?

As Mroad indicated...Irvin shoots 1-2 bricks a game. I mean real bricks...like makes Chatman look like a good shooter. As the line goes in the movie Heat...It's worth the risk.



Reality Man