Upated version of Beilein vs. Big Ten since 2011

[maelfan]

These numbers are relevant because of the hypocrisy so many UM fans spew when discussing Beilein.

For example, if one accepts that he is a crappy recruiter, then he must be one helluva an X's and O's coach to have the numbers below attributed to him in comparison to a god like Izzo.

If you say he has brought in enough talent, then fine, for 5+ years (as of today), he has held his own with three programs who have dominated him in recruiting rankings (IU, MSU, OSU) even if his classes have been good enough, and another who has either slightly outrecruited him (Wisconsin) or been about the same.

5+ year conference records (7 game separation in 5+ year period for top 4)
Wisconsin - 71-29
OSU - 69-32
MSU - 66-35
UM - 64-37
IU - 53-48

Big Ten Titles Outright and Shared (even as can be)
OSU - 2
UM -2
MSU -1
IU - 1
Wisconsin - 1

Tournament highlights (absolutely equal give or take)
OSU 10-5 - one elite 8 - one final 4 (zero finals)
UM 10-4 - one elite 8 - one final 4(one final)
Wisconsin 13-5 - two final fours(one final)
MSU 11-5 - one elite 8 - one final four (zero finals)
IU 5-3 - zero elite 8 - zero final four

 

[goblue2222]

I love this post, guess JB can coach. He is playing this year without his 2 of his best players. They are going through a tough time, but that happens to the best of them.

 

[JP2Blue]

Yeah, we had some good teams, but those numbers are trending downward and fast. If you think Teske and the kid from Onsted are difference makers then we'll be fine. I don't see it. Average recruiting plus a questionable system = middle of the pack BIG team.

 

[Reality Man]

This is a completely flawed OP.

Look...no one is saying that JB hasn't brought in really good talented guards...whether ranked or not. That is indisputable. From Morris to Burke to THJ or Stauskas to LeVert to Walton, etc. etc.

Problem (900 lb. gorilla in the room) is that JB CAN'T recruit bigs. That really isn't disputable. Morgan wasn't really a highly touted big along with Horford. Morgan was a 'unique' player for the JB system. McGary...more a result of Novak being here at UM. Doyle/Donna/Wilson. Throw in Chatman who hasn't lived up to expectations. GR3...o.k. Irvin...is he really considered a big? You get the point.

Teske? Davis? Maybe but there is no way to spin it. JB either can't recruit bigs or bigs don't want anything to do with his system. No one can ever say JB didn't have talented guards. Look at Simpson coming in. Poole and Watson look pretty good.

JB can't get bigs to want to play in his system which is a big problem in this conference unless you have great guards and forwards.

As I have said (probably not unique)...if you could give JB a free quality big guy pass and he could choose a 10-20 ranked big guy then he would win. Maybe Teske is that guy. JB missed on his evaluations. That simple. Not blaming any of these guys. Donnal is doing his best as is with Doyle. Maybe Wagner helps down the line but JB created his own bed.



RM

 

[CinciBlue]

this is all pretty comical.

The last two games that have you all riled up had nothing to do with "bigs". They gave up a ton of free looks which can't happen, and credit to the other team for knocking down the looks.

JB is never going to get bigs that sit on the block. That isnt the offense he runs. They need to be athletic and do things that bigs in most systems are not asked to do.that's the challenge.

If you think JB is going to change his entire offensive philosophy of over 30 years you are nuts.

The defensive issues are not about bigs. It is much deeper than that, and over the past few years when they have gone through defensive woes it wasnt one spot.

Belein is never going to have a big with his ass on the block. If that is what you want then you are asking for a new coach.

The issues are effort and mental at this point.

 

[maelfan]

this is all pretty comical.

The last two games that have you all riled up had nothing to do with "bigs". They gave up a ton of free looks which can't happen, and credit to the other team for knocking down the looks.

JB is never going to get bigs that sit on the block. That isnt the offense he runs. They need to be athletic and do things that bigs in most systems are not asked to do.that's the challenge.

If you think JB is going to change his entire offensive philosophy of over 30 years you are nuts.

The defensive issues are not about bigs. It is much deeper than that, and over the past few years when they have gone through defensive woes it wasnt one spot.


The issues are effort and mental at this point.

Do you really want to fire this guy? UM is 18-16 last year and this year, basically playing without Walton and Levert for most or all of the Big Ten last year, and playing without two seniors this year who played key roles in the final four and elite 8 runs. At 18-16, still absolutely right up there with the best of the big ten for 5 years and 16 games into year 6.

5 year conference records plus 16 games of year 6
Wisconsin - 75-30
OSU - 73-33
MSU - 69-36
UM - 67-39
IU - 56-49

Big Ten Titles Outright and Shared (even as can be)
OSU - 2
UM -2
MSU -1
IU - 1
Wisconsin - 1

Tournament highlights (absolutely equal give or take)
OSU 10-5 - one elite 8 - one final 4 (zero finals)
UM 10-4 - one elite 8 - one final 4(one final)
Wisconsin 13-5 - two final fours(one final)
MSU 11-5 - one elite 8 - one final four (zero finals)

 

[CinciBlue]

D

Do you really want to fire this guy? UM is 18-16 last year and this year, basically playing without Walton and Levert for most or all of the Big Ten last year, and playing without two seniors this year who played key roles in the final four and elite 8 runs. At 18-16, still absolutely right up there with the best of the big ten for 5 years and 16 games into year 6.

5 year conference records plus 16 games of year 6
Wisconsin - 75-30
OSU - 73-33
MSU - 69-36
UM - 67-39
IU - 56-49

Big Ten Titles Outright and Shared (even as can be)
OSU - 2
UM -2
MSU -1
IU - 1
Wisconsin - 1

Tournament highlights (absolutely equal give or take)
OSU 10-5 - one elite 8 - one final 4 (zero finals)
UM 10-4 - one elite 8 - one final 4(one final)
Wisconsin 13-5 - two final fours(one final)
MSU 11-5 - one elite 8 - one final four (zero finals)

Duggarsdad and RM will not like this...Trending downward, and fast..good grief.

IT's been a challenging two seasons for sure. I expected last season to be a little tough, and it got really bad when Caris went down.

My expectations were extremely high this year. Even with Caris they weren't playing great, so I am not sure what not having him really means. It's tough to tell. It certainly hurts on defense and overall rotations for rest and matchups.

Frankly, I think what JB has done this season has been pretty damn good all things considered. He has flawed players across the board (certainly he can be blamed for that since he recruited them), and has not had his lottery pick for the better part of the season.

Yet, here are they with 20 wins, and a legit shot at the NCAA. I like JB in the NCAA since coaching matters. Is this is a final 4 contender? no, of course not, on paper. Just gotta get in and see what happens.

 

[ChicagoBlueFan]

this is all pretty comical.

The last two games that have you all riled up had nothing to do with "bigs". They gave up a ton of free looks which can't happen, and credit to the other team for knocking down the looks.

JB is never going to get bigs that sit on the block. That isnt the offense he runs. They need to be athletic and do things that bigs in most systems are not asked to do.that's the challenge.

If you think JB is going to change his entire offensive philosophy of over 30 years you are nuts.

The defensive issues are not about bigs. It is much deeper than that, and over the past few years when they have gone through defensive woes it wasnt one spot.

Belein is never going to have a big with his ass on the block. If that is what you want then you are asking for a new coach.

The issues are effort and mental at this point.

Indeed, I think we are asking for a new coach. Amazing that almost every coach in basketball thinks inside scoring and rebounding matter, we have the 1 coach who doesn't. Too bad we can't recruit inside players like powerhouses SMU and Xavier...

 

[maelfan]

Indeed, I think we are asking for a new coach. Amazing that almost every coach in basketball thinks inside scoring and rebounding matter, we have the 1 coach who doesn't. Too bad we can't recruit inside players like powerhouses SMU and Xavier...

You are wrong with everything you wrote. Explain this then.

Wisconsin has had one supposed dominating big man the last 10 years, Kaminsky, and he was more Rasheed Wallace and less Greg Oden. How in the hell then has Wisconsin been dominant i the Big Ten for years, including of course the last 6 years, and been very relevant nationally? I don't get it?

And Beilein was one shot away from a consecutive final four with ZERO significant dominance from big men two years ago. How? Is it possible that is not a problem? Maybe a symptom of other missing parts, which of course he coudl be faulted for.

These comical statements from you and others that he doesn't value that is insane. Did he or did he not aggressively recruit Amir Williams? Yes. McGary? Yes. All 9 Plumlee brothers? Yes. Bates-Diop, although I guess he is not that type of player. The list goes on. He hasn't landed them, yes, maybe because of his style but if he didn't want those guys he wouldn't go all out recruiting them in the first place, right.

Beilein or any coach can win a national title with the exact roster we had in 13 and 14, with or withou the dominating play of McGary as 2014 proved, even given our loss to Kentucky.

 

[ChicagoBlueFan]

You are wrong with everything you wrote. Explain this then.

Wisconsin has had one supposed dominating big man the last 10 years, Kaminsky, and he was more Rasheed Wallace and less Greg Oden. How in the hell then has Wisconsin been dominant i the Big Ten for years, including of course the last 6 years, and been very relevant nationally? I don't get it?

And Beilein was one shot away from a consecutive final four with ZERO significant dominance from big men two years ago. How? Is it possible that is not a problem? Maybe a symptom of other missing parts, which of course he coudl be faulted for.

These comical statements from you and others that he doesn't value that is insane. Did he or did he not aggressively recruit Amir Williams? Yes. McGary? Yes. All 9 Plumlee brothers? Yes. Bates-Diop, although I guess he is not that type of player. The list goes on. He hasn't landed them, yes, maybe because of his style but if he didn't want those guys he wouldn't go all out recruiting them in the first place, right.

Beilein or any coach can win a national title with the exact roster we had in 13 and 14, with or withou the dominating play of McGary as 2014 proved, even given our loss to Kentucky.

OK, he tried to recruit them, but failed. So we make do with elite guys like Doyle. Great post. If only he had gotten all those guys he didn't get...

 

[CinciBlue]

I'll take Jordan Morgan and horfords surrounded by what belein brings in all day.

This gets old.

The dude wins plain and simple. This is just the reality of things. You can keep spinning the numbers all you want.

 

[maelfan]

I'll take Jordan Morgan and horfords surrounded by what belein brings in all day.

This gets old.

The dude wins plain and simple. This is just the reality of things. You can keep spinning the numbers all you want.

Spinning numbers? Those are facts, not spinning.

As you said, dude wins. Six years running now UM is toe to toe in conference and nationally with the best in the big ten.

Things could look a lot different by the end of tourney this year or with another average year next year. My amateur guess is UM easily finishes top 4-5 in big ten next year, maybe higher, unless every player stagnates, which would be a coaching issue.

 

[Reality Man]

It's pretty simple from my point of view. JB and his teams are struggling because Irvin is inconsistent (albeit improved) along with average center play relative to the better teams. Irvin is also undersized at the #4 and Chatman hasn't really done anything.

There you go. JB has 'busted' at the #5 and #4 relative to other competitors. Until he gets better production from those spots then he is going to hear more and more noise.

JB isn't going anywhere but he better hope the 2 of the following occur in the next few years.

1. Chatman makes significant contributions and becomes the player he was anticipated to become out of h.s.

2. Wagner develops

3. Teske/Davis is a legit BT player on both ends

JB has clearly 'missed' on some key components. I see Simpson and Watson and Poole as fine players. Robinson and Dawkins are fine although the defense and toughness needs to improve but it all comes down to the key spots when playing in the BT



RM

 

[maelfan]

By the way, for everyone clamoring that more bigs is always the answer, Matt Painter and his endless parade of bigs has accomplished the following the last 6 years compared to Beilein.

6 less conference wins
0 BTT to Beilein's 2
5 total NCAA games with a 2-3 record to Beilein's 10-4 record.

Would we love Hammons, Haas, and Swanigan type players on our roster every year? Absolutely. But there are other formulas to winning basketball in the big ten and nationally without those type of players.

 

[maelfan]

Even as someone who is completely off the Beilein train, I still find these numbers fascinating, almost hard to believe. Since the beginning of 2011 in the big ten up through yesterday.

Conference Wins
Wisconsin - 80
MSU - 76
OSU - 75
UM - 69
Pur - 64
IU - 61
Maryland - 30 through first two years and this year

Big Ten Titles Outright and Shared
OSU - 2
UM -2
IU -2
MSU - 1
Wisconsin - 1

Tournament highlights
OSU 10-5 one elite 8 - one final 4 (zero finals)
UM 10-5 - one elite 8 - one final 4(one final)
Wisconsin 15-6 - two final fours(one final)
MSU 11-6 - one elite 8 - one final four (zero finals)
IU 6-4 - zero elite 8 - zero final four
Purdue 2-4
Maryland 3-2

These numbers are relevant because of the hypocrisy so many UM fans spew when discussing Beilein.

For example, if one accepts that he is a crappy recruiter, then he must be one helluva an X's and O's coach to have the numbers below attributed to him in comparison to a god like Izzo.

If you say he has brought in enough talent, then fine, for 5+ years (as of today), he has held his own with three programs who have dominated him in recruiting rankings (IU, MSU, OSU) even if his classes have been good enough, and another who has either slightly outrecruited him (Wisconsin) or been about the same.

5+ year conference records (7 game separation in 5+ year period for top 4)
Wisconsin - 71-29
OSU - 69-32
MSU - 66-35
UM - 64-37
IU - 53-48

Big Ten Titles Outright and Shared (even as can be)
OSU - 2
UM -2
MSU -1
IU - 1
Wisconsin - 1

Tournament highlights (absolutely equal give or take)
OSU 10-5 - one elite 8 - one final 4 (zero finals)
UM 10-4 - one elite 8 - one final 4(one final)
Wisconsin 13-5 - two final fours(one final)
MSU 11-5 - one elite 8 - one final four (zero finals)
IU 5-3 - zero elite 8 - zero final four

 

[MWBLUE23]

I'm not sure if any of you saw this, but five star center Mo Bamba has included Michigan in his list final list of schools, which also includes UK, Duke and Texas. Here is the article.

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...igan-basketball-recruiting-mo-bamba/96612538/

 

[wolverines74]

I love this post, guess JB can coach. He is playing this year without his 2 of his best players. They are going through a tough time, but that happens to the best of them.

He sure can coach . It's the kids he feels comfortable with vs. the McDonalds that he goes up against. If our 9 play their best and the other side does the same we lose a little it to each player which makes the final score a 8-12 pt. lose. If one of our players goes off and lights up the building and everything else is the same we win by 5-7 pts. Now, I still question is new assistants and their being on the same page in what JB wants done. The STAFF has a lot to say about planning teaching and executing the game plan. I wish them the best tonight in Madison. 2-16 vs. Wisky these past few years. God Bless Go Blue "74

 

[MWBLUE23]

This game against Wisconsin is interesting. Obviously, a win would be huge for the program going forward. If they lose a close game on a road, that can still be a positive learning experience going forward. I'm just hoping it's not a blowout.

 

[wolverines74]

This game against Wisconsin is interesting. Obviously, a win would be huge for the program going forward. If they lose a close game on a road, that can still be a positive learning experience going forward. I'm just hoping it's not a blowout.

Amen . It turned out to be close. 35 minutes we had them with great play , but then no answer for the 3's and the 21 fouls which is not characteristic of this year's team. GBGB"74

 

[maelfan]

LAST SEVEN COMPLETE BIG TEN SEASONS - ENTERING THIS YEAR'S TOURNEY
Conference Wins
Wisconsin - 89
MSU - 82
OSU - 81
UM - 77
Pur - 75
IU - 66
Maryland - 38 through first two years and this year. Maryland's average is best, but not when combined with ACC conference standings, of course apples and oranges.

Big Ten Titles Outright and Shared
OSU - 2
UM -2
IU -2
MSU - 1
Wisconsin - 1
Purdue - 1

Tournament highlights
OSU 10-5 one elite 8 - one final 4 (zero finals)
UM 10-5 - one elite 8 - one final 4(one final)
Wisconsin 15-6 - two final fours(one final)
MSU 11-6 - one elite 8 - one final four (zero finals)
IU 6-4 - zero elite 8 - zero final four
Purdue 2-4
Maryland 3-2