Let's contrast JH's first year w Hoke's

[detroitjohn]

What's one way you see a difference in those two years despite the similar records?

My contribution would be the improvements in a number of players across the team. DL, DBs, WRs and obviously QB have taken huge strides. Hoke's main improvements were among parts of the defense

 

[tarun262]

I see a couple differences and a few similarities:

1. Both teams had belief that they would win and continued to compete all the way until the end.
2. Both teams showed drastic defensive improvement - driven in large part from a change of scheme and upper-classmen.

Now for the differences:

1. Hoke's team was completely inept offensively outside of Denard Robinson who was averaging 5+ yards rushing. You take him out of the equation and put even Jake Rudock there and Michigan likely loses to VT, ND, and OSU. He was single-handedly spectacular.
2. We got very very lucky with a bunch of terribly throw balls where Jr. Hemingway made Robinson look like a genius QB.
3. Hoke's team tried to keep the option system in-tact which was the strength from the year before so Hoke did not have to do something drastically different.
4. JH's team seem more fundamentally sound compared to the 2011. Sure the penalties and lack of tackling the past few games have been tough, but you could tell that this team is starting to better understand the fundamentals of playing football.

Overall - what Hoke did in Year 1 was really really impressive. Perhaps even more so then JH but it just went downhill from there. I don't foresee that with JH's team. You got the feeling in 2011 that this team was playing near it's peak and we kept getting all the lucky breaks. This team on the other hand this year, we are not even close to being near the pinnacle. We are so flawed in so many areas and we will only improve - and yet we are 9-2!!!

I think we may take a step back or stay the same next year as a lot of JH's players will still be very young and we play @OSU & @MSU. However, I fully expect by Year 3 that is where the difference will be noticed.

 

[cidsports]

Iowa has a better team in 2015, than 2011, and I would guess Michigan State would say the same?

The rematch isn't likely, unless PSU pulls the upset win over MSU on Saturday. Best wishes vs. OSU. I hope Jake Rudock goes out with another win!

peace

 

[ArrowheadBlue]

Let's examine a few variables in this argument.

Hoke took a rag-tag RR team and went 10-2. Hoke left the cupboard in good shape.
Hoke went 10-2 with a MAC coaching staff. That was obvious in his next 3 seasons. His teams were not technically sound and there were some poor game decisions including misuse of timeouts, etc. etc. There was an obvious lack of player development. I only hope that Gardner doesn't hate UM after his (lack) of coaching. There was an inability to identify team talent (just look at Rawl's 200 yard game today), as well.

JH inherited a good collection of underachieving athletes and has turned them around. He selected his staff with care rather than friendship. UM is heavy NFL and the secondary (remember its inability to play bump and run) shows that. JH can and has developed QBs (unlike Hoke). This experience leads to a better selection of QB recruits.

The last couple of weeks show some flaws in the team's performance but no one can take away 3 shutouts and it would have been 4 until a 4th quarter TD to a poor UNLV team. I was in the stands for Utah and the final 30 minutes (outside of the pick 6) was tilting in UM's favor. I think the first 30 minutes the team played in awe of everything.

UM has shown improvement every game and that's a tribute to coaching. No one can deny Rudock's improvement as well as the WRs. The OL still looks out of joint but another coaching year should make them competent there's even a true freshman in the starting 6. JH also collects quarterbacks like stamps. Unlike Hoke who was left scrambling to find a QB this season (if he had stayed), JH is grooming 4 QBs and a stud entering next season. They say O'Korn is a Harbaugh clone who likes it rough, can throw (he had 3,000 yards as a true freshman) and is football savvy.

The defense returns the secondary and adds to the DL with Mone returning. The gap will be at linebacker but I believe 16 starters return. If the DL is very good it will cover up any LBer discrepancies.

Better yet, there will not be a learning curve between players and coaches. One year together allows both sides to understand each other. While my poster friend Tarun sees a fall out next season I think MSU is weaker as will OSU (lots of kids leaving or graduating). UM will be experienced.

btw, Hoke equals Franklin. Good recruiter. No so in gametime.

 

[Reality Man]

Let's examine a few variables in this argument.

Hoke took a rag-tag RR team and went 10-2. Hoke left the cupboard in good shape.
Hoke went 10-2 with a MAC coaching staff. That was obvious in his next 3 seasons. His teams were not technically sound and there were some poor game decisions including misuse of timeouts, etc. etc. There was an obvious lack of player development. I only hope that Gardner doesn't hate UM after his (lack) of coaching. There was an inability to identify team talent (just look at Rawl's 200 yard game today), as well.

JH inherited a good collection of underachieving athletes and has turned them around. He selected his staff with care rather than friendship. UM is heavy NFL and the secondary (remember its inability to play bump and run) shows that. JH can and has developed QBs (unlike Hoke). This experience leads to a better selection of QB recruits.

The last couple of weeks show some flaws in the team's performance but no one can take away 3 shutouts and it would have been 4 until a 4th quarter TD to a poor UNLV team. I was in the stands for Utah and the final 30 minutes (outside of the pick 6) was tilting in UM's favor. I think the first 30 minutes the team played in awe of everything.

UM has shown improvement every game and that's a tribute to coaching. No one can deny Rudock's improvement as well as the WRs. The OL still looks out of joint but another coaching year should make them competent there's even a true freshman in the starting 6. JH also collects quarterbacks like stamps. Unlike Hoke who was left scrambling to find a QB this season (if he had stayed), JH is grooming 4 QBs and a stud entering next season. They say O'Korn is a Harbaugh clone who likes it rough, can throw (he had 3,000 yards as a true freshman) and is football savvy.

The defense returns the secondary and adds to the DL with Mone returning. The gap will be at linebacker but I believe 16 starters return. If the DL is very good it will cover up any LBer discrepancies.

Better yet, there will not be a learning curve between players and coaches. One year together allows both sides to understand each other. While my poster friend Tarun sees a fall out next season I think MSU is weaker as will OSU (lots of kids leaving or graduating). UM will be experienced.

btw, Hoke equals Franklin. Good recruiter. No so in gametime.

You can't compare Franklin to Hoke. It's like coimparing Tommy Amaker to Ellerbe.

Apples and oranges. Franklin had very good success in the SEC at a program with relatively no historical success. Franklin may not be a good gameday coach but to equate that will the overall ineptitude of Hoke is a real stretch.


RM

 

[Reality Man]

I see a couple differences and a few similarities:

1. Both teams had belief that they would win and continued to compete all the way until the end.
2. Both teams showed drastic defensive improvement - driven in large part from a change of scheme and upper-classmen.

Now for the differences:

1. Hoke's team was completely inept offensively outside of Denard Robinson who was averaging 5+ yards rushing. You take him out of the equation and put even Jake Rudock there and Michigan likely loses to VT, ND, and OSU. He was single-handedly spectacular.
2. We got very very lucky with a bunch of terribly throw balls where Jr. Hemingway made Robinson look like a genius QB.
3. Hoke's team tried to keep the option system in-tact which was the strength from the year before so Hoke did not have to do something drastically different.
4. JH's team seem more fundamentally sound compared to the 2011. Sure the penalties and lack of tackling the past few games have been tough, but you could tell that this team is starting to better understand the fundamentals of playing football.

Overall - what Hoke did in Year 1 was really really impressive. Perhaps even more so then JH but it just went downhill from there. I don't foresee that with JH's team. You got the feeling in 2011 that this team was playing near it's peak and we kept getting all the lucky breaks. This team on the other hand this year, we are not even close to being near the pinnacle. We are so flawed in so many areas and we will only improve - and yet we are 9-2!!!

I think we may take a step back or stay the same next year as a lot of JH's players will still be very young and we play @OSU & @MSU. However, I fully expect by Year 3 that is where the difference will be noticed.

 

[Reality Man]

Love it Tarun.


1. Hemingway was an unbelievable player for that team. In fact...I have always felt Chris Calloway was the most underrated UM player in my lifetime. Most people have no idea who he is but why do I mention him. He was a phenomenal blocker and clutch. Just a clutch clutch possession receiver. Look at his NFL career.

Nobody gives this guy a second thought among the top 10 UM wr's. When is the last time you have heard a UM fan ever reference Calloway in the same breath as other big play UM wr's?

He was like Hemingway in that Junior just made the dirty work catches. The passes that should have been int's and turned them into big plays or td's. How about Va Tech? Hemingway was injured for a lot of his career and when he got healthy this UM team did much better. Take Hemingway off that team as was in previous years and I can almost assure you that UM would have 3 more losses.

I may now consider Hemingway the most underrated UM skill player in my lifetime. Not as good of a NFL career as Calloway but a great UM player. Top 10 UM wr all time and he doesn't even sniff the top of the record books as with Calloway.

2. You can spin it anyway you want but UM should have been 9-4. DOMINATED in the VA Tech game. Lucky as hell against ND. Lots of flash and some fortunate breaks. UM won these games this year through solid plays. No hail Mary's. In fact the one loss that they were outplayed for the most part (not like VA Tech) they lost on a fluke play.

So the difference between the two years in striking. Not to mention UM beat a down OSU team if I recall correctly. I guess UM could have beaten Iowa that year but I knew after that 2011 year that UM was lucky to be 11-2 but didn't anticipate that the Hoke factor would be so prominent going forward.

Goes to show every AD that coaches can have a lot of stuff go their way and upgrade their job and you get stuck with them for a few years. Do your research AD's.



RM

 

[ArrowheadBlue]

Your assessment of Franklin and his "success" in the SEC is exactly why PSU is in its current state. As memory serves Franklin's teams did not knock off any top SEC teams and I think he posted a losing conference record every year. Sounds like a good reason to promote someone. When I watched Hackenberg as a freshman under O'Brien I thought this kid would be walking on water by his 3rd season. Sadly for the kid he has regressed every season under Franklin who can't coach up QBs. That's why I think Franklin is a Hoke in disguise. Good guy, solid recruiter, poor coach.

And to the original post...JH can find assistants and coach (and recruit). It's a solid combination.

 

[Reality Man]

AB....Disagree.

Last 2 years he was either above .500 (2012) and at .500 in (2013). In the last year he beat Georgia and Florida and Tenn. Now Florida and Tenn weren't great but still he did it at Vanderbilt.

He won both of his bowl games and earned his 'opportunity' at PSU.


Now...and I mean this..and this isn't necessarily only directed at you. Look folks. You can't label someone as a Hoke level coach. When you say something like it was 'Hokeish' then that is pretty bad. Franklin is no Hoke. He may not be a great coach but that doesn't mean he is some form of a defensive line coach or coaching dufus.

Weiss was a pretty bad head coach but he wasn't at a Hoke level. Guy was an OC in the Pro's. He may be a jerk but that doesn't mean he is Brady Hoke.

Hoke is at a certain level that only a select few reach. RR isn't at that level. I think Ellerbe may actually be lower. Bobby Williams in my opinion is at a Hoke level.

Franklin earned his opportunity and may not be perfect but let's not insult him with Hoke references.



RM