Interesting chat about MSU

[tarun262]

with my best friend who is an alum from there. I did not know this but the current MSU squad has 5 players that are likely NFL bound/talent in the next year and 2:

• Connor Cook - 3 star
• Calhoun - 3 star
• Price - 3 star
• Jack Allen - 3 star
• Jack Conklin - unrated

Pretty incredible that MD is the exact opposite of everything Hoke was. Hoke is where kids went to regress while MD just seems to have a knack for developing talent. I think all their players drafted over the past 3 years have also all been 3-star players. While Urban might be the best coach in CFB, Dantonio might be the best at making the most of his players (since Urban's squads are usually absolutely loaded). JH had a very similar record at Stanford as well - made the most with jewels. Hopefully we can do wonders with the highly overrated talent we have at Michigan.

 

[detroitjohn]

I like what I'm seeing so far in Harbaugh pushing his players towards higher and better levels.

 

[Lake Tahoe Spartan]

with my best friend who is an alum from there. I did not know this but the current MSU squad has 5 players that are likely NFL bound/talent in the next year and 2:

• Connor Cook - 3 star
• Calhoun - 3 star
• Price - 3 star
• Jack Allen - 3 star
• Jack Conklin - unrated

Pretty incredible that MD is the exact opposite of everything Hoke was. Hoke is where kids went to regress while MD just seems to have a knack for developing talent. I think all their players drafted over the past 3 years have also all been 3-star players. While Urban might be the best coach in CFB, Dantonio might be the best at making the most of his players (since Urban's squads are usually absolutely loaded). JH had a very similar record at Stanford as well - made the most with jewels. Hopefully we can do wonders with the highly overrated talent we have at Michigan.

I don't know how Conklin was unrated. He must have not gone to many camps.

 

[detroitjohn]

Hopefully we can do wonders with the highly overrated talent we have at Michigan.

I wouldn't call them highly overrated, just highly uncoached!

 

[tarun262]

DetroitJohn you are correct, I think coaching is sometimes more important then talent. I actually think ratings take things into account while not always accurate (I know scblue thinks it's a money making scheme). I think in HS your true athleticism and size can overcome other deficits (work ethics, etc) and really show well on tape. However, your resolve, your ability to want to work hard, become fundamentally sound, be coached, etc is something ratings do not capture. Ideally you want a highly rated kid that has all those other qualities as well but I think "coachability" is probably the one aspect that never shows up.

I look at the recruits Hoke had - Funchess, Kalis, Morris, Green, Ty - all 4 or 5 stars. All are supremely talented but neither seemed like they wanted to be coached or were coachable. I think JH will change that - look at some of the 2-3 stars he has recruited for next year and the things their coaches have said is that they are coachable and have tremendous work ethic. We need to get there!

 

[eric2015]

with my best friend who is an alum from there. I did not know this but the current MSU squad has 5 players that are likely NFL bound/talent in the next year and 2:

• Connor Cook - 3 star
• Calhoun - 3 star
• Price - 3 star
• Jack Allen - 3 star
• Jack Conklin - unrated

Pretty incredible that MD is the exact opposite of everything Hoke was. Hoke is where kids went to regress while MD just seems to have a knack for developing talent. I think all their players drafted over the past 3 years have also all been 3-star players. While Urban might be the best coach in CFB, Dantonio might be the best at making the most of his players (since Urban's squads are usually absolutely loaded). JH had a very similar record at Stanford as well - made the most with jewels. Hopefully we can do wonders with the highly overrated talent we have at Michigan.

I think we've discussed this, but I'd argue that Dantonio is one of the best talent evaluators in the nation. Jack Conklin was starting as a redshirt freshman. He was no project. The same for the rest of those guys. When Gholston was in his final season at MSU, the word was the best DE on the roster was being redshirted. That was Calhoun.

MSU currently has two 4 star players starting in the defensive backfield. I'd take Dennard and Waynes, 2 two star recruits, over those guys in a heartbeat. Cox and Nicholson are both very good players and may end up being NFL players, but right now, I don't see them as 1st round picks.

MSU only brought in 2 two star recruits in the 2014 class. One is now the punter (averaging close to 50 yards per punt), and the other, Montez Sweat, is already in the playing rotation at DE. Word is he is going to be a star. Probably should have been a 4 star recruit.

No offense man, but I have to laugh when I hear what great developers of talent Dantonio and staff are. Yeah, they do a good job in that department, but they do a better job bringing in studs. It's not always about the star ratings.

 

[ThatsMrSpartan2U]

I think we've discussed this, but I'd argue that Dantonio is one of the best talent evaluators in the nation. Jack Conklin was starting as a redshirt freshman. He was no project. The same for the rest of those guys. When Gholston was in his final season at MSU, the word was the best DE on the roster was being redshirted. That was Calhoun.

MSU currently has two 4 star players starting in the defensive backfield. I'd take Dennard and Waynes, 2 two star recruits, over those guys in a heartbeat. Cox and Nicholson are both very good players and may end up being NFL players, but right now, I don't see them as 1st round picks.

MSU only brought in 2 two star recruits in the 2014 class. One is now the punter (averaging close to 50 yards per punt), and the other, Montez Sweat, is already in the playing rotation at DE. Word is he is going to be a star. Probably should have been a 4 star recruit.

No offense man, but I have to laugh when I hear what great developers of talent Dantonio and staff are. Yeah, they do a good job in that department, but they do a better job bringing in studs. It's not always about the star ratings.

As MSU fan..not trolling...just commenting.

I think Dantonio described his recruiting style and goals not too long ago. they look for
A. physical size and speed...with HS players projecting size and speed levels 2-3 yrs down the road is an art not just a science. MSU has an interesting knack for identifying 16-17 yr. olds who project to have the kind of big time physicality to play at the college level
B. mental makeup....desire, coachability, leadership. They get this talking to coaches and families. Does the kid "want it".
C. Stars are a starting point only but are not very revealing to Dantonio et al. Everyone knows who the 4 and 5 stars are. Nobody knows who the 1-2-3 star guys are who will outplay the 4s and 5s. The deal is now, MSU at least gets into the living rooms of the 4s and 5s when they never had a chance before. But a 3 will really listen to MSU now.

The interesting thing now is that when MSU comes and talks to a lower level recruit they really, really listen. In the recruiting wars, MSU and Dantonio aren't biting into the Ohio States, Michigans and Alabamas all that much. It's the Illinois and Iowa and Cincinnati....also Nebraska and Penn State that they're peeling away really good 3 star guys away from....and obviously some 4s or 5s. When was the last time Illinois or Iowa got a 5 star?

OSU and UM will always get their guys. MSU is now getting "their guys"...mostly at the expense of PSU, IOWA, WIS and NEB....Virginia.....Syracuse......those kinds of programs who are not getting any 4s or 5s to speak of.

I lament the day when Dantonio leaves. I don't know if they can keep it up without him. He's that good. Really good.

 

[tarun262]

Sorry Eric - coaching has a LOT to do with development. You can't tell me that the ratings are so far off that they are irrelevant...if that was the case the entire SEC would suck! Ratings are not great but good enough and Dantonio knows how to take his talent and develop them. Look at highlights of some of these kids in HS and they were average at best, not that strong, etc and Dantonio has been able to develop them, push them, etc. You can see it however you want.

 

[eric2015]

Sorry Eric - coaching has a LOT to do with development. You can't tell me that the ratings are so far off that they are irrelevant...if that was the case the entire SEC would suck! Ratings are not great but good enough and Dantonio knows how to take his talent and develop them. Look at highlights of some of these kids in HS and they were average at best, not that strong, etc and Dantonio has been able to develop them, push them, etc. You can see it however you want.

You can't teach speed, and MSU is dramatically faster than um. Yes, coaching is involved. The strength and conditioning coach is involved. Nutritionist are involved. But you can't take a 4.7 guy and turn them into a 4.4 guy. Last year at the NFL combine, MSU had the fastest RB and fastest DB. As Urban Meyer mentioned several times when he was the color commentator doing MSU games, MSU is the one team in the Big Ten that has SEC speed.

 

[tarun262]

Eric, do you engage in any sport? Yes you can teach speed! I ran track in HS and have run multiple marathons and in my 20s I started taking speed drills witha a speed coach and started running my fastest times. Man, don't they teach you anything at MSU? Stop barking out things because you hear them on TV - research them next time! Also research how many kids have actually become faster in college from HS...TONS!

 

[eric2015]

Eric, do you engage in any sport? Yes you can teach speed! I ran track in HS and have run multiple marathons and in my 20s I started taking speed drills witha a speed coach and started running my fastest times. Man, don't they teach you anything at MSU? Stop barking out things because you hear them on TV - research them next time! Also research how many kids have actually become faster in college from HS...TONS!

Football and Hockey back in the day. Golf, biking and weights now. I used to do triathlons. I've worked out my entire life. Was a walk on for two years at MSU.

My guess is I know far more about athletics than you ever will. Perhaps I'm wrong. But I doubt it.

BTW, I said you can't take a 4.7 guy and turn him into a 4.4 guy. Can a 4.7 guy become a 4.6 guy with training? Sure. But we are all born with a certain % of fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers in our bodies. All the training in the world won't change that. And if you don't have a very high % of fast twitch muscle fibers, you'll never be a fast guy.

 

[tarun262]

Perhaps you should not try to assume you know more about speed and sports then I will. I ran track and was running the 100 meters are a very high speed. My speed drastically went up as I started training in HS so yes I do know a little thing or 2 more then you about speed. Did you run track/sprints competitively? Golfing, biking, hockey, and football teach you more about speed then sprinting? Would love your rationale on things. However if you helps you sleep better at night that you are the authoritative person on everything relating to athletics, go for it - you win. I'll start calling you Chris Berman for your mad knowledge especially since you have no bias what-so-ever.

 

[eric2015]

Perhaps you should not try to assume you know more about speed and sports then I will. I ran track and was running the 100 meters are a very high speed. My speed drastically went up as I started training in HS so yes I do know a little thing or 2 more then you about speed. Did you run track/sprints competitively? Golfing, biking, hockey, and football teach you more about speed then sprinting? Would love your rationale on things. However if you helps you sleep better at night that you are the authoritative person on everything relating to athletics, go for it - you win. I'll start calling you Chris Berman for your mad knowledge especially since you have no bias what-so-ever.

And how much did your speed increase between HS and college (assuming you went to college)?

So, you are telling me a 4.7 guy AT THE COLLEGE LEVEL can be turned into a 4.4 guy? Only way I see that happening is if you have a 250 LB that slims down to 180. And even then, it might not happen. Average fast guys just don't turn into HOLY S--T fast guys. Can a 11.2 100 meter guy in HS see his time drop by .25? Sure. Look at the top 100 meter times nationally in HS, then look at what those guys are running in college. Some of the guys get a bit faster, but not by much.

 

[CaliforniaGreen1]

You're both straying from the original point of contention - identifying talent or developing talent.

The reality is that successful program need to do both. Another reality is that the ratings services are fairly good at identifying the standout players at 16 and 17; what they can't predict is the best players at age 21 or 22. Many times (and particularly at the skill positions), the highest rated kids are those with freak-level athleticism, but for every kid like that, there's also players that are highly ranked because they've had more top notch coaching or strength and conditioning. So, particularly for programs that aren't just getting their picks of the athletic freaks, the key becomes identifying those players that have the raw physical tools, but also the work ethic to absolutely push themselves over the next 5 years.

 

[ArrowheadBlue]

I've enjoyed the reads. First, I think we all agree that star ratings are to sell services and hook interested fans. I published a fan newspaper out West and enjoyed making recruiting money but seriously the coaches don't put much credit in any ratings. For example, how can a kid go from 50 to 100 or lower without playing a game? By attending the sponsor's camp, that's how.

Too many camps are hurting the kids between junior and senior years. They need some time off. Hell, even the NFLers take at least 30 days off before lifting a weight. Most coaches put stock in pads not in stats.

Addressing speed is also an interesting topic. The saying is you can't teach speed or size. But there's a big difference between track speed and football speed. Track speed is good for long passes (maybe 4 times a game). Football speed wins games.

I'll also be the first to agree that over the past 7 years MSU has developed players far better than UM which had higher star ratings. Before continuing, look at my first paragraph and remember I don't give a rip about star ratings. In fact, one service had the rookies making NFL teams by star ratings. I think you can google it. But I think its a reflection of UM's hiring coaches who couldn't coach up the talent. Plain and simple. btw, I don't put stock in having more kids drafted, either. There are plenty of MSU quarterbacks in the NFL today, for example, all as backups.

UM's hope isn't with star ratings based on JH's current commitments but rather taking a kid with some skills and enhancing those skills. the conclusion comes in October.

 

[eric2015]

I've enjoyed the reads. First, I think we all agree that star ratings are to sell services and hook interested fans. I published a fan newspaper out West and enjoyed making recruiting money but seriously the coaches don't put much credit in any ratings. For example, how can a kid go from 50 to 100 or lower without playing a game? By attending the sponsor's camp, that's how.

Too many camps are hurting the kids between junior and senior years. They need some time off. Hell, even the NFLers take at least 30 days off before lifting a weight. Most coaches put stock in pads not in stats.

Addressing speed is also an interesting topic. The saying is you can't teach speed or size. But there's a big difference between track speed and football speed. Track speed is good for long passes (maybe 4 times a game). Football speed wins games.

I'll also be the first to agree that over the past 7 years MSU has developed players far better than UM which had higher star ratings. Before continuing, look at my first paragraph and remember I don't give a rip about star ratings. In fact, one service had the rookies making NFL teams by star ratings. I think you can google it. But I think its a reflection of UM's hiring coaches who couldn't coach up the talent. Plain and simple. btw, I don't put stock in having more kids drafted, either. There are plenty of MSU quarterbacks in the NFL today, for example, all as backups.

UM's hope isn't with star ratings based on JH's current commitments but rather taking a kid with some skills and enhancing those skills. the conclusion comes in October.

In 2008, MSU's stable of QB's was Nick Foles, Brian Hoyer and Kirk Cousins. Two are starting this weekend, and three started last week. I agree, there really isn't a star there, but just to make a 53 man roster is quite an accomplishment. Add Stanton to the list of MSU QB's still in the league. Cook will almost certainly be the next in line to be playing on Sundays. Next year, MSU will have 3 four star (for those who care about stars) QB's on the roster.

An argument can be made that MSU QB's recently have been as good as any program in the country.

 

[DetroitRockCity]

In 2008, MSU's stable of QB's was Nick Foles, Brian Hoyer and Kirk Cousins. Two are starting this weekend, and three started last week. I agree, there really isn't a star there, but just to make a 53 man roster is quite an accomplishment. Add Stanton to the list of MSU QB's still in the league. Cook will almost certainly be the next in line to be playing on Sundays. Next year, MSU will have 3 four star (for those who care about stars) QB's on the roster.

An argument can be made that MSU QB's recently have been as good as any program in the country.

Being on the roster is one thing. Actually playing and contributing to a teams success is another.

 

[detroitjohn]

Being on the roster is one thing. Actually playing and contributing to a teams success is another.

Very true, UM had lots of NFL cannon fodder for the NFL over the years (Navarre, Collins, Grbac, Griese, and Henson) none of whom made much a dent. Yet, the point stands, MSU is developing a number of pro QB prospects recently. I suspect that unique hold in the state is about to change

 

[eric2015]

Being on the roster is one thing. Actually playing and contributing to a teams success is another.

If a QB sticks around more that a few years, considering most teams only carry two, I'd say having four in the league at one time is pretty damn impressive.
All have been starters at some point in their careers.

 

[thedude96]

I don't know how Conklin was unrated. He must have not gone to many camps.

His dad played at Michigan. He wanted to play for Michigan. Hoke said there wasn't room.

 

[DetroitRockCity]

Very true, UM had lots of NFL cannon fodder for the NFL over the years (Navarre, Collins, Grbac, Griese, and Henson) none of whom made much a dent. Yet, the point stands, MSU is developing a number of pro QB prospects recently. I suspect that unique hold in the state is about to change

The last MSU QB to make a "dent" in the NFL was Earl Morrall. Alot of poster's on this board probably weren't even born when he played.

 

[detroitjohn]

The last MSU QB to make a "dent" in the NFL was Earl Morrall. Alot of poster's on this board probably weren't even born when he played.

Yeah it's a little early for MSU fans to proclaim the school as a new QB factory. Still their progress is measurable, though they've sent fodder to the league for years (Miller, Stanton, etc.)

 

[jbannan]

There are thousand of High School QB's and hundreds in College, and maybe 75-80 in the NFL. I think when one school has 5% or more it is significant. I believe Tony Banks played in the NFL also. There seems to be a run on certain positions from certain schools and this is just MSU's time with QB's. Michigan had a lot of WR's at one time. It runs in cycles.