I do understand why some people think UM is overrated...a big question (long)

[Reality Man]

mark at qb and what I would call average big ten rb's. Not bad but nothing to brag about.

Now...here is where I think the disconnect occurs and I am guilty of this too. Most people were surprised at the year last year. I know I was. I think people still perceive UM as a year away and can't wrap their heads around all the talk of UM either winning the BT or even making the playoff.

Now here is where I am going with all of this. I think MOST people don't realize exactly how much talent Hoke recruited into UM during his tenure. Maybe he didn't do a very good job at certain skill positions but nonetheless the foundation of UM football was above average but not well coached.

This is the exact opposite of what Hoke inherited (had D Rob and some other guys but not a great foundation of players) whereas Harbaugh (who has acknowledged) inherited a cupboard that was most fully stocked.

Look at the foundation of UM football right now. They are in most cases Hoke guys who have been coached and for all of you recruitniks...highly touted guys.

Let's go over this...let's stay away from the skill guys.

McCray
Gedeon
Winovich
Hurst
Mone
Wormley
Glasgow
Cole
Kalis
Braden
Magnuson

Look...by any standard you want to use. These are guys that Harbaugh and staff would have been very happy to recruit/land. Harbaugh walked into a LOADED foundation. He didn't have qb's and great skill guys (some developed...Chesson) but my point is this wasn't some major reconstruction job.

If you look at this objectively...this team was built (maybe not well coached) to succeed quickly with the right skill guys. If you take the two best Alabama skill guys and put them on this team...could they win a NC? Maybe.

Just my .02 cts. Or in my case...my .015 cts.


RM

 

[detroitjohn]

Interesting to think what we have on offense compared with what we inherited from Hoke. We inherited no viable QB, a very mediocre running game, a very poor wide receiver crew, a fantastic TE and a mediocre to largely poor offensive line.

We now have a question mark at QB (though most are confident that JH will do his thing there), a viable running game, especially if Isaac takes a next step, an excellent wide receiver squad, still a fantastic TE (+ newbies developing), and an okay OL that might develop into a decent one if takes the next step from the progress it made versus Florida.

How much of that is Hoke's talent? Quite a bit, but most of it was latent and apparently going nowhere (I attended the 15 Spring Game and the passing game was simply awful as was the blocking). I'm prepared to thank Hoke for recruiting talent, but I leave most of the credit at the feet of the current staff for taking it where it likely would not have gone on its own.

 

[Reality Man]

Another way of looking at this...Speight may wind up as the qb and you are right...almost the entire team is what Hoke recruited. Is there any player outside of Gary, Bredeson or maybe Evans who isn't part of the Hoke era?

I might be missing someone...Perry? What would this team be with Hoke? I don't know but not nearly as good or effective.



RM

 

[detroitjohn]

I'm not arguing at all with you on what players UM has, Harbaugh has had one pathetic recruiting class that was cobbled together in a couple weeks. We haven't yet seen what will come of this new class.

Like Rodriguez inherited lots of talent on defense in 08 and squandered it, Harbaugh inherited a lot of defensive talent and went far with it and inherited lots of potential players that had done essentially squat on offense under Hoke, and produced a more than serviceable offense.

Hoke was a great recruiter, he did little to develop players outside of his wheelhouse of DL and even less to develop teams.

 

[tarun262]

By your logic Hoke's success the first 2 years was a result of Denard, Gallon, Kovacs, etc and there fore you should discredit his record for the first 2 years which would make him the worst coach in college football. Also by your logic, Urban's first 2 years where he lost 2 games I think in total including going 12-0 was a result of Tressel and not him. Oh and when Saban won a NT at Alabama he played mostly with players from his predecessor. Basically by your logic, every coach should get zero credit for their first 3 years of coaching...in which case almost all college coaches would suck because the turnover is so high.

 

[detroitjohn]

By your logic Hoke's success the first 2 years was a result of Denard, Gallon, Kovacs, etc and there fore you should discredit his record for the first 2 years which would make him the worst coach in college football. Also by your logic, Urban's first 2 years where he lost 2 games I think in total including going 12-0 was a result of Tressel and not him. Oh and when Saban won a NT at Alabama he played mostly with players from his predecessor. Basically by your logic, every coach should get zero credit for their first 3 years of coaching...in which case almost all college coaches would suck because the turnover is so high.

Let me break it down simply for you.

• UM was 5-7 in Hoke's last year...nine months later UM is two plays away from being 12-1.
• They would have been under Hoke at best 5-7 or 6-6 last year...they did not have a QB until Harbaugh recruited one, an offensive line, any serviceable WRs, etc.
• Did you see the 15 Spring Game? I wasn't sure if we would get to 200 total points on the season...if you watched it you would agree.
• Harbaugh in nine months did more with Hoke's players than he could ever hoped to do.
• Hoke was a good recruiter, he was a mediocre HC, hey, kind of like his offenses. He is now a coordinator, which may fit his limited skill set, he is a great DL position coach.
• Harbaugh is going to be a great recruiter, already 2 or 3 of his true freshmen are getting talked about as starters.
• Why anyone would obsess about Hoke is beyond me.

 

[Reality Man]

Gentlemen,

The OP was not to compare Hoke with Harbaugh. That would be stupid.

My point was that this team (starters) has basically been recruited by Hoke other than a guy like Gary or Perry.

If UM has enough talent to win a BT title (I believe that) then it goes to show you that Hoke could recruit well enough for Harbaugh to win.

This reminds me of the Carr vs. Pete C. at USC days. Where Pete could switch teams with Carr and beat him with his own players. The Hoke vs. Harbaugh example is even more pronounced.

I guess in a strange way I am also giving credit to Hoke for at least leaving the next coach something where RR left about 5-7 guys for Hoke to win with although Hoke was very fortunate that year not to have a couple of more losses.



RM

 

[detroitjohn]

Gentlemen,

The OP was not to compare Hoke with Harbaugh. That would be stupid.

My point was that this team (starters) has basically been recruited by Hoke other than a guy like Gary or Perry.

If UM has enough talent to win a BT title (I believe that) then it goes to show you that Hoke could recruit well enough for Harbaugh to win.

This reminds me of the Carr vs. Pete C. at USC days. Where Pete could switch teams with Carr and beat him with his own players. The Hoke vs. Harbaugh example is even more pronounced.

I guess in a strange way I am also giving credit to Hoke for at least leaving the next coach something where RR left about 5-7 guys for Hoke to win with although Hoke was very fortunate that year not to have a couple of more losses.



RM

I can live with your main point. Hoke recruited well, the shelf was stocked except at QB and maybe LB (we will see about McCray). I'm not sure I'd agree with your assessment of what Rich Rod left for Hoke, I'd put the number at about a dozen to 15 players (not as much as Hoke, but hardly nothing):

• 3-5 decent to serviceable college WRs (Roundtree, Gallon, Dileo, Odoms, Hemingway)
• A NFL-bound RB (Toussaint)
• One of the top 3-4 athletes ever at UM at QB (Robinson) & a great athlete that Hoke never developed (Gardner)
• 2 NFL linemen (Schofield and Lewan) & great college center (Molk)
• 4 NFL starters/contributers up front (Mike Martin, Frank Clark, Jake Ryan, & Kenny Demens)
• 2 serviceable DBs (Countess & Kovacs)

 

[Reality Man]

Hemingway & Gallon. Roundtree...to a lesser extent. Roundtree was a backup BT depth guy on a good time. Hemingway was legit and the MVP of that 11 win team. Gallon was very good but I wouldn't necessarily think he was a guy who could win BT championships...think Manningham. I think of Gallon as a slightly poorer version of Chesson going forward. I am a huge fan of Gallon and don't want to come across as someone who didn't appreciate his talent and contributions but wasn't a Hoke or Harbaugh guy but a RR smurf guy.

You can only play one qb at a time and I am a skeptic on how good Gardner would have been at qb even with high end coaching. I think he inevitably gets moved to a different position by Harbaugh. DRob would have been at rb under Harbaugh so right now...I see Hemingway & Gallon & DRob and Gardner (4 total so far).

Agree on OL. (Total 7)

Plus 4....somewhere around 11-12.

For a relatively short period of time...how many of these guys were ready to play/win at the same time. I think we can agree on maybe 8-10? Not a huge amount of talent on a team especially with some big holes in other spots. See qb and rb.



RM

 

[Reality Man]

I think we would agree that Harbaugh could have won 2-4 more games each of the Hoke years. No question in my mind because Harbaugh would have put people in the right positions and not let a player turnover the ball a gazillion times.

RM

 

[detroitjohn]

Hemingway & Gallon. Roundtree...to a lesser extent. Roundtree was a backup BT depth guy on a good time. Hemingway was legit and the MVP of that 11 win team. Gallon was very good but I wouldn't necessarily think he was a guy who could win BT championships...think Manningham. I think of Gallon as a slightly poorer version of Chesson going forward. I am a huge fan of Gallon and don't want to come across as someone who didn't appreciate his talent and contributions but wasn't a Hoke or Harbaugh guy but a RR smurf guy.

You can only play one qb at a time and I am a skeptic on how good Gardner would have been at qb even with high end coaching. I think he inevitably gets moved to a different position by Harbaugh. DRob would have been at rb under Harbaugh so right now...I see Hemingway & Gallon & DRob and Gardner (4 total so far).

Agree on OL. (Total 7)

Plus 4....somewhere around 11-12.

For a relatively short period of time...how many of these guys were ready to play/win at the same time. I think we can agree on maybe 8-10? Not a huge amount of talent on a team especially with some big holes in other spots. See qb and rb.



RM

I have to say the second string/depth of teams left for Hoke were awful compared with what Hoke left for Harbaugh. Just awful.

I think I put Gardner down as perhaps the worst utilized talent in my 40 years of following UM football. Why he wasn't strategically developed over his career and allowed to play like he was against OSU in 2013 is beyond me. Hoke and Borges tried to pound his round peg into a square-holed, drop back QB when he was a classic athlete (as was Robinson). Harbaugh would have taken one look at him and had him playing WR in a heartbeat (with plays to get him the ball in space and occasionally at QB, essentially a poor man's Braxton Miller).

 

[GoBlue_since1985]

I really liked Gardner. I hate that he was so horribly developed as a player. Like you guys said, he could've been utilized at a different position and possibly had the chance to further his football career.

 

[tarun262]

I have to say the second string/depth of teams left for Hoke were awful compared with what Hoke left for Harbaugh. Just awful.

I think I put Gardner down as perhaps the worst utilized talent in my 40 years of following UM football. Why he wasn't strategically developed over his career and allowed to play like he was against OSU in 2013 is beyond me. Hoke and Borges tried to pound his round peg into a square-holed, drop back QB when he was a classic athlete (as was Robinson). Harbaugh would have taken one look at him and had him playing WR in a heartbeat (with plays to get him the ball in space and occasionally at QB, essentially a poor man's Braxton Miller).

You should check your stats - Gardner had one of the best years as a QB in Michigan history under Borges. Where he really struggled was under Nuss.

Gardner under Borges - here are the stats:
2960 passing yards, 21 TDs
483 rushing yards, 11 TDs

2nd most yards in Michigan history (behind Robinson) and 2nd most TDs in Michigan history...you are really telling me he was terrible? I am not advocating that Borges was great but the Borges system was actually a good fit for Gardner - the problem is that nobody was there to coach him how to improve in that system. Nuss was what killed his career! In 2013 I think Gardner also posted 2 of the best games by a QB in Michigan history - only surpassed by Jake last year against IU. I wish Gardner would have had JH as a coach for a year - I think he would have shatter every record.

 

[tarun262]

Actually come to think about overall under Borges, he had 32 passing TDs, 22 rushing TDs, completed 60% of his passes, and passed for 4200 yards, ran for 850 yards..in a span of 17 games!

If someone told you, hey I have a QB averaging:
247 passing yards, 50 rushing yards, 3+ TDs per game and 1 INT per game what would you say??? Terrible, throw in the towel? Get me a new QB???

 

[ChicagoBlueFan]

Actually come to think about overall under Borges, he had 32 passing TDs, 22 rushing TDs, completed 60% of his passes, and passed for 4200 yards, ran for 850 yards..in a span of 17 games!

If someone told you, hey I have a QB averaging:
247 passing yards, 50 rushing yards, 3+ TDs per game and 1 INT per game what would you say??? Terrible, throw in the towel? Get me a new QB???

I think the combination of the inept Nuss and one of the worst O lines in UM history (courtesy of the inept Funk) was what undid Gardner. Terrible run game, and constantly running for his life when trying to throw. With actual coaching and a real offensive line Gardner would've been fine.

 

[Reality Man]

Actually come to think about overall under Borges, he had 32 passing TDs, 22 rushing TDs, completed 60% of his passes, and passed for 4200 yards, ran for 850 yards..in a span of 17 games!

If someone told you, hey I have a QB averaging:
247 passing yards, 50 rushing yards, 3+ TDs per game and 1 INT per game what would you say??? Terrible, throw in the towel? Get me a new QB???

Would you be able to break down his performances

1. By non-conference and conference
2. Include fumbles
3. By his junior and senior years?
4. Top 4 BT records and bottom

I am sure the numbers would tell a different story. As we have discussed before...a better OL and run game would have clearly helped Gardner along with a better coach. Something tells me that if UM had a high end coach (Harbaugh or Saban or Dantonio or Meyer) then you wouldn't have even seen Gardner at qb.

Gardner was talented but not a precision passer.


RM

 

[detroitjohn]

You should check your stats - Gardner had one of the best years as a QB in Michigan history under Borges. Where he really struggled was under Nuss.

Gardner under Borges - here are the stats:
2960 passing yards, 21 TDs
483 rushing yards, 11 TDs

2nd most yards in Michigan history (behind Robinson) and 2nd most TDs in Michigan history...you are really telling me he was terrible? I am not advocating that Borges was great but the Borges system was actually a good fit for Gardner - the problem is that nobody was there to coach him how to improve in that system. Nuss was what killed his career! In 2013 I think Gardner also posted 2 of the best games by a QB in Michigan history - only surpassed by Jake last year against IU. I wish Gardner would have had JH as a coach for a year - I think he would have shatter every record.

You're right, I meant Nussmeier, not Borges, but Nuss represented where boneheaded Hoke wanted to go with his offense, to a power-based, dropback QB while he had a spread offense QB (the mirror of Rich Rod's boneheadedness in 2008). My point stands, they misused Gardner, he had two of the best big game QB games at UM (minus one horrible INT) against ND and OSU in 2013. Turn the page to 2014 and he couldn't get past the 50 yd line vs ND and went way backwards under Hoke and Nuss. Like I said, one of the most talented players and most poorly coached and managed in UM's history.

He's one of the biggest reasons I have little warmth in my heart for Hoke. I'm tired of smiling at ineptitude in the UM coaching ranks, pretending that good recruiting and being a good guy is a sufficient substitute for competency and success.

 

[tarun262]

Would you be able to break down his performances

1. By non-conference and conference
2. Include fumbles
3. By his junior and senior years?
4. Top 4 BT records and bottom

I am sure the numbers would tell a different story. As we have discussed before...a better OL and run game would have clearly helped Gardner along with a better coach. Something tells me that if UM had a high end coach (Harbaugh or Saban or Dantonio or Meyer) then you wouldn't have even seen Gardner at qb.

Gardner was talented but not a precision passer.


RM

I know you hated Garnder and you proclaimed Golson as your love! That is clear and he could have done no wrong. Even if you account for fumbles, etc - he flourished under Borges especially when they still had no running game or O-line...if he had a Jake Long that dude would have been unstoppable. He had fewer fumbles then Gardner...next time you decide to spew opinions based on your biases look up stats and rewatch the games. Under the 2 seasons where he played for Borges we don't beat IU, ND, stay even close to OSU in both games, beat Iowa, beat NW if not for some heroic efforts from Gardner. His complete ineptitude came under Nuss who wanted him to become a traditional pocket QB - and yes his Sr year was one of the worst QB performances I have ever seen - he regressed across the board...even his passing motion stank but you have to blame coaches for that. A coaches job is to help a QB transition and improve and grow - Nuss was the wrong guy to hire for that.

 

[tarun262]

You're right, I meant Nussmeier, not Borges, but Nuss represented where boneheaded Hoke wanted to go with his offense, to a power-based, dropback QB while he had a spread offense QB (the mirror of Rich Rod's boneheadedness in 2008). My point stands, they misused Gardner, he had two of the best big game QB games at UM (minus one horrible INT) against ND and OSU in 2013. Turn the page to 2014 and he couldn't get past the 50 yd line vs ND and went way backwards under Hoke and Nuss. Like I said, one of the most talented players and most poorly coached and managed in UM's history.

He's one of the biggest reasons I have little warmth in my heart for Hoke. I'm tired of smiling at ineptitude in the UM coaching ranks, pretending that good recruiting and being a good guy is a sufficient substitute for competency and success.

I will always have a soft spot for Gardner - I have been following Michigan football for 23 years now and I have to say in the years I have watched them and followed them, I have never come across a player who gave so much to the program, had a great atitude, exemplified a world class student athlete but got nothing in return from the coaches...yes he got a great Michigan education and you can never discount that but our coaches basically ruined his entire potentially. Such a bummer for the guy - but you still listen to his interviews and see him around campus and games, and he still talks to highly about the program, etc. What a class act and individual.

 

[ChicagoBlueFan]

You're right, I meant Nussmeier, not Borges, but Nuss represented where boneheaded Hoke wanted to go with his offense, to a power-based, dropback QB while he had a spread offense QB (the mirror of Rich Rod's boneheadedness in 2008). My point stands, they misused Gardner, he had two of the best big game QB games at UM (minus one horrible INT) against ND and OSU in 2013. Turn the page to 2014 and he couldn't get past the 50 yd line vs ND and went way backwards under Hoke and Nuss. Like I said, one of the most talented players and most poorly coached and managed in UM's history.

He's one of the biggest reasons I have little warmth in my heart for Hoke. I'm tired of smiling at ineptitude in the UM coaching ranks, pretending that good recruiting and being a good guy is a sufficient substitute for competency and success.

AGP. That and stuff like Rawls never seeing the field because he wasn't one of Clappy's guys (apparently he's doing OK in the NFL) just aggravates me. That and the "it takes 6 years to build a program" idiocy.

 

[detroitjohn]

AGP. That and stuff like Rawls never seeing the field because he wasn't one of Clappy's guys (apparently he's doing OK in the NFL) just aggravates me. That and the "it takes 6 years to build a program" idiocy.

Then there's Rawls, I forgot about him. Man Hoke was incompetent when it came to offenses and utilizing talent.

 

[michigangoblue999]

Then there's Rawls, I forgot about him. Man Hoke was incompetent when it came to offenses and utilizing talent.

Fred Jackson, too. He was kept on waaaaay too long. I am pretty sure Rich wouldn't have hired him, but the old bastard contingent of the fanbase value consistency above winning.

 

[detroitjohn]

Fred Jackson, too. He was kept on waaaaay too long. I am pretty sure Rich wouldn't have hired him, but the old bastard contingent of the fanbase value consistency above winning.

Yeah, after Hart graduated besides a brief spark from Toussaint there was not a lot of RB development under him.

 

[Reality Man]

Then there's Rawls, I forgot about him. Man Hoke was incompetent when it came to offenses and utilizing talent.

Loved that you threw this sort of topic out. Hoke couldn't develop talent outside of the DL. That was his calling and he clearly was good at it but I am concerned he is going to fail at Oregon because the guy is a position coach. Can Hoke construct a gameplan and then adapt? I don't know. I know he can recruit defensive players...that is for sure and hopefully he has a good staff that can hide his play calling.

I think Oregon hired him to recruit DLine and some other guys and then get rid of him once they have better talent. Maybe it's hard to do worse but I don't think Hoke is the answer at DC.

Hoke is basically a great position coach and nothing is wrong with that.


RM

 

[ChicagoBlueFan]

Then there's Rawls, I forgot about him. Man Hoke was incompetent when it came to offenses and utilizing talent.

The continued atrocious O line play, and Clappy's refusal to replace Funk were also maddening to me. Funk is probably one of the worst coordinators/position coaches I've ever seen. Along with RR's coffee boy Gibson.

 

[scfanblue]

RR was way out of his element coming into UM and it exposed him as a head coach big time. He should have stayed at WVU where he was a God and he could recruit the type of little and fast athletes that played in their conference. He was constantly out coached in the Big Ten. Once in a while, he will have a good run at Arizona meaning he wins 8-9 games BUT he will never win it all. As for Hoke- He was a quick band aid for the old guard to stop whining about Michigan Men leading the program. Brady recruited well for the DL BUT he is NOT a head coach either. Both he and Rich Rod are coordinators. As for their assistant coaches, well, they all spoke something of Rod and Hoke's leadership. Hoke was way too close with David Brandon who was an arrogant pompous ass businessman who served as a practice dummy at UM during his playing days. He meddled way too much and had Hoke as a puppet. Good riddance to all those losers. Jimmy is the real deal now. Go Blue!!!!!!!!

 

[tarun262]

I am not sure I fully agree on Rich Rod. Yes he was the complete wrong fit at Michigan but the man can still coach and I think belongs as a HC. Now, is he a Top 10 coach that he was made out to be? I think we all know the answer to that. Rich Rod is still a HC and HC material but probably for a mid-major or mid-tier football program where as Hoke has no business being a HC. This is the year where we will learn a lot about Rich Rod - he plays in a very tough conference and this will be Year 5 at Arizona for him - meaning ALL the players will be his and under his system and he should have quite a few upperclassmen. If Rich Rod can't eke out 8 games this season, I think his head coaching days are numbered.

Either way though - really glad we have Jim Harbaugh. I know Saban and Urban are great coaches but honestly I would not trade our HC for anyone in the business - with Urban likely being a close 2nd.

 

[Reality Man]

I would agree with these assertions but I don't think RR is going anywhere. He is doing relatively well at UA. Did you see the post about RR making fundamental changes in his defensive schemes (LOL)...so I think he realizes things have to change on defense.

RR is at Arizona. He makes a bowl game and beats ASU...they are happy but he hasn't done great against ASU. RR needs to bring exciting football along with average defense and win 7-8 games a year and he will stick around.


RM

 

[ChicagoBlueFan]

I would agree with these assertions but I don't think RR is going anywhere. He is doing relatively well at UA. Did you see the post about RR making fundamental changes in his defensive schemes (LOL)...so I think he realizes things have to change on defense.

RR is at Arizona. He makes a bowl game and beats ASU...they are happy but he hasn't done great against ASU. RR needs to bring exciting football along with average defense and win 7-8 games a year and he will stick around.


RM

I tend to agree that Arizona is more than happy to win about 8 per year and occasionally go to a decent bowl game. There were rumors that Rich Rocket Scientist was looking around because he wants to be at a school where football is #1, and that is not the case at Arizona. If he does leave, it will be something like that, where he has convinced himself (wrongly) that he could win big at the right school. But it doesn't get fixed overnight, we do know that much.

 

[tarun262]

Agree with all being said here - I do think that he does need to get to a very good record to show the world that he is an elite coach. Agree, AZ will keep him as long as he wins about 7-8 games but his reputation will take a hit if he does not win a lot more games this year. Right now, pundits still argue that it was Michigan's system and not RR that was the fault but this year - Year 5 - he has to show what his system can do otherwise, the jury is out on him. Either way, he is so far from the Top Coaches conversation right now that there is no Top 50 program who would even consider him - at least based on his body of work the past 8 years.

 

[Reality Man]

I tend to agree that Arizona is more than happy to win about 8 per year and occasionally go to a decent bowl game. There were rumors that Rich Rocket Scientist was looking around because he wants to be at a school where football is #1, and that is not the case at Arizona. If he does leave, it will be something like that, where he has convinced himself (wrongly) that he could win big at the right school. But it doesn't get fixed overnight, we do know that much.

Agree with both of you. RR is very confident in his abilities as a HC and his system. I, on the other hand, after seeing his system up close and personal believe he is at best a 2nd tier coach...someone who belongs at Oregon State or Texas Tech or Indiana or even lower on the totem poll.

RR is probably Beilein lite as a coach. They are quirky guys. RR is totally dependent on a DC to run the defense AND most importantly recruit talent on that side of the ball. RR can recruit on occasion recruit exceptional athletes into his offense because they are built around a dynamic qb and rb.

If RR strikes gold with those two positions then he can give teams fits but contrary to his own opinion of himself...he isn't that good of a coach/recruiter. Very similar to Beilein. Runs a quirky system and isn't that great of a recruiter.

Both guys came from West Virginia....HMMMM. Both of them know their system inside and out and are true believers in their system. Rigid and unwilling to change until they are about to fail. See RR with his defensive changes and even Beilein now.


RM



RM

 

[scfanblue]

Rich Rod was within a blink from taking the South Carolina job last year and he would have been a perfect fit their for a while because it is a second tier SEC job. His time in Columbia would have been around four years max following behind Spurrier who elevated that program while he was there. RR's offense would have been ripped apart in the SEC though as well as his horrible defensive scheme. I agree he will be out of coaching within 3 years max and back in the reporting booth.

 

[ChicagoBlueFan]

Agree with both of you. RR is very confident in his abilities as a HC and his system. I, on the other hand, after seeing his system up close and personal believe he is at best a 2nd tier coach...someone who belongs at Oregon State or Texas Tech or Indiana or even lower on the totem poll.

RR is probably Beilein lite as a coach. They are quirky guys. RR is totally dependent on a DC to run the defense AND most importantly recruit talent on that side of the ball. RR can recruit on occasion recruit exceptional athletes into his offense because they are built around a dynamic qb and rb.

If RR strikes gold with those two positions then he can give teams fits but contrary to his own opinion of himself...he isn't that good of a coach/recruiter. Very similar to Beilein. Runs a quirky system and isn't that great of a recruiter.

Both guys came from West Virginia....HMMMM. Both of them know their system inside and out and are true believers in their system. Rigid and unwilling to change until they are about to fail. See RR with his defensive changes and even Beilein now.


RM



RM

There are some parallels between RR and JB. Both continued to recruit at a WVU level even once they got to UM, convinced that their system is the key. RR is one of the few football coaches who doesn't seem terribly interested in controlling the LOS or stopping the other team defensively. JB is atypical for a basketball coach as he seems to disdain rebounding and inside scoring, 2 things most coaches seem to value.

 

[Reality Man]

Rich Rod was within a blink from taking the South Carolina job last year and he would have been a perfect fit their for a while because it is a second tier SEC job. His time in Columbia would have been around four years max following behind Spurrier who elevated that program while he was there. RR's offense would have been ripped apart in the SEC though as well as his horrible defensive scheme. I agree he will be out of coaching within 3 years max and back in the reporting booth.

Give RR credit for turning that opportunity down. I think he got a dose of humility in the Big Ten and the SEC would have been worse trying to make the system change.

Before UM...RR was confident. He beat Oklahoma in bowl? He was feeling it. Unbelievably successful at WVU. He had his two superstars and thought he would come into the Big Ten and just kick '...' and take names.

Didn't quite work out that way. Changing systems is very difficult plus the Big Ten and the SEC are big powerful conferences and gimmicks just aren't as effective. That Wiscy loss was arguably the most embarrassing loss in UM football history.

So what I am saying is RR is learning lessons and kudos for him for staying put at U of A.

RM



RM

 

[bjacket]

I think the combination of the inept Nuss and one of the worst O lines in UM history (courtesy of the inept Funk) was what undid Gardner. Terrible run game, and constantly running for his life when trying to throw. With actual coaching and a real offensive line Gardner would've been fine.

That's what I remember ruining him. He took such a beating that you could tell he was scared every time he dropped back to pass. Sad.

I think Harbaugh would've kept him at QB. He was a very capable QB, had great tools, and was a bright kid. If he would've been developed and had an OL to block for him, he could've been special.

I always though Denard was the one who wasn't used properly. Absolutely phenomenal athlete --- not a QB. We used him there because he was basically our only playmaker. Always thought he was more of a Percy Harvin type player.

 

[ChicagoBlueFan]

That's what I remember ruining him. He took such a beating that you could tell he was scared every time he dropped back to pass. Sad.

I think Harbaugh would've kept him at QB. He was a very capable QB, had great tools, and was a bright kid. If he would've been developed and had an OL to block for him, he could've been special.

I always though Denard was the one who wasn't used properly. Absolutely phenomenal athlete --- not a QB. We used him there because he was basically our only playmaker. Always thought he was more of a Percy Harvin type player.

AGP. With that inept O line, they would always run on 1st down and lose yardage or gain almost nothing. They were always in 2nd and long/3rd and long, then Gardner would be running for his life.
Clappy and Funk basically ruined Gardner as a QB. I have no idea why Clappy tolerated Funk being so obviously awful at his job year after year. Then when he did get desperate, he canned Borges but, for some reason, retained probably the worst coach on his staff. Bizarre.

 

[tarun262]

You watching Hoke's comments about his defense at Oregon - "they are not playing with effort" Seems like they practice well in drills but it does not translate on to the field. Resembles what we saw at Michigan...somehow I get the feeling players like him but don't necessarily respect him.

 

[anon_sg4bgyiuileo1]

^^^Yeah. It was like he was pals with the team, but didn't want to discipline them in any way.

 

[ChicagoBlueFan]

You watching Hoke's comments about his defense at Oregon - "they are not playing with effort" Seems like they practice well in drills but it does not translate on to the field. Resembles what we saw at Michigan...somehow I get the feeling players like him but don't necessarily respect him.

I can only assume if Clappy struggles as DC for a few years and gets fired, we' ll hear that it takes 6 years to build a defense...