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Finally watched punt replay. Sorry, but this is first chip in honeymoon...

maelfan

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The coaching mistakes on that punt were numerous. And I don't care if O'Neill was a 10th year senior.

Baxter first, Harbaugh second botched the last play. While it was still somewhat flukey, some inexcusable poor coaching moves on that last play increased the probability that something was going to go wrong. And it did.
 
The coaching mistakes on that punt were numerous. And I don't care if O'Neill was a 10th year senior.

Baxter first, Harbaugh second botched the last play. While it was still somewhat flukey, some inexcusable poor coaching moves on that last play increased the probability that something was going to go wrong. And it did.
Fine but Baxter shone brightly otherwise, I love what he's done w ST
 
The coaching mistakes on that punt were numerous. And I don't care if O'Neill was a 10th year senior.

Baxter first, Harbaugh second botched the last play. While it was still somewhat flukey, some inexcusable poor coaching moves on that last play increased the probability that something was going to go wrong. And it did.

Somewhat flukey? Somewhat? Dude, that was the weirdest god damn thing I've ever seen.
 
Some observations on the final sequence:

1) It appeared that both teams had 1 player line up offsides, very close, if you look at the black line drawn for the LOS. The MSU player that was borderline was standing upright, over to the Long Snapper, most if not all of his helmet was within the black line drawn for the LOS.

2) Michigan had 2 gunners, 1 Long Snapper, 1 Punter, 4 Lineman and 3 Up Blockers. Farthest gunner was wide open, ie, uncovered. Needless to say, he didn't block. Bottom gunner went downfield and was followed by the only Sparty to not rush. No idea why on both counts. MSU rushed 10. UM Long Snapper was bowled over and did a back flip or two towards the P, couple of more and maybe he makes the tackle lol. Illegal hit nonetheless, hell, could have called targeting (slightly tongue in cheek there). After the initial 10 on 8 contact, 3 UM 'blockers' actually proceeded downfield, the quickest was #3 (D Mo?) he had a helluva start on downing the Punt and celebrating during the roll. One of the Up Blocker who took 1 step upfield was Wormley, and he didn't touch anyone.

3) Now some math for the 'We didn't need to Punt at all' crowd. Michigan got the ball back prior to the Punt with 1:47. With MSU having 1 TO, 80 seconds, or 1:20 was going to come off the 40 second play clock, leaving 27 seconds to kill in 4 plays. 6.75 seconds per play. Play #1 went off left tackle for 5 yards to the Michigan 49, took 5 seconds as MSU called TO immediately at 1:42. Play #2, a run to the zero hole, took between 5 and 6 seconds, gained 3 yards to the MSU 48. The 40 second countdown began around the 1:36/1:37 mark. Meaning after 40 seconds, there would be 56 or 57 seconds left. JH called TO and the clock was in fact at 56 seconds. Play #3 was snapped on the right hash, went off right tackle, for 1 yard to the MSU 47, and was whistled at the 51 second mark, but the 40 second play clock had a 9 second differential. Michigan called TO at 10 seconds but could have took a delay of game to get it to 9 seconds had they preferred, which is inconsequential at this point.

4) Now, assuming a 4th down run would have been between the tackles AND the first down was NOT picked up, the evidence shows that there would have been 4 or 5 seconds left for MSU. What this means is, that by simply running between the tackles in an attempt to run out 27 seconds, Michigan would have run out 22 or 23 seconds instead.. in 4 plays. Lets go with 5 seconds left. That means the average length of the most pedestrian running plays, which needed to be 6.75 seconds, were 5.5 seconds. Further meaning, each of the 4 plays had to last an AVERAGE of 1.25 seconds LONGER. 1.25 seconds per play does NOT equate to dancing around near our goaline, etc. That could be accomplished with 4 Sweeps to the wide side, losing a handful of yardage each time, and could have been done by the QB himself, student body left, then right, etc. Any limited 'dancing' before falling to the ground by the sidelines would be OPTIONAL, as you only need to take off 1.25 more seconds than 4 runs between the tackles, which hypothetically gained less than 10 yards collectively. It would have been conceiveable to take of the 27 seconds in just 3 sweeps at 9 seconds each, but certainly not necessary. Remeber that the field is 53 Yards wide, and it is 33 yards from a wide has to the opposite sideline.

5) On handling punts as if there is no or limited risk, less than a week ago, during an NFL punt, the snap was good, and the punter dropped the ball towards his foot for the Punt, and the defender had his hand on the ball BEFORE the Punter's foot struck the ball. That's how fast an untouched player can cover 12 yards. Punts are blocked when there are good snaps and good catches. Also on Saturday, during Rutgers 25 pt comeback vs IU in the last 20 minutes, they returned a botched punt for a TD. MSU had 3 untouched players, all coming predictably from the side opposite the where the P was going to go for a quick rugby kick. The eventual returner was let thru the initinal LOS and blocked by Braden who released the block not knowing there was an issue with the snap.

6) Any Hail Mary attempt would have been about 60 yards into a wind that was knocking down everything all day AND Connor Cook is NOT known for not having the strongest arm, in fact earliler in the game he graded out a B- for arm strength. What if he wasn't even capable of throwing a hail mary 60 yards, or 55? I can't find any clip of him throwing that far, which he should be able to do, however not necessarily dealing with the same wind that produced an 80 yd punt earlier in the day.

7) When the ball is on your opponents side of the field, there is something I don't like about the phrase 'If we get this punt off, the clock runs out and the game is over'. Which was indeed the case. At your own 30, then sure, but in this case, see #4.
 
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The black line drawn is done by the tv networks...it is a guide to use at home, but hardly the official los.

I assume every team has a max protect punt. After the 3rd down timeout, I dont understand how Harbuagh didnt use max protect and tell his guys 10 times over and over again that your only job is to block we dont need to field a punt if MSU comes out without a return guy.

The mind boggling part is you see MULTIPLE UM guys running down the field to field a punt we had no guy back to recover...this was a massive coaching blunder by Harbaugh.

Hey Jim, you wear the pants...you should have taken the heat instead of blaming your punter and the refs.

So what happened was a mixture of a really lucky bounce for MSU and coaching preparation.
 
The black line drawn is done by the tv networks...it is a guide to use at home, but hardly the official los.

I assume every team has a max protect punt. After the 3rd down timeout, I dont understand how Harbuagh didnt use max protect and tell his guys 10 times over and over again that your only job is to block we dont need to field a punt if MSU comes out without a return guy.

The mind boggling part is you see MULTIPLE UM guys running down the field to field a punt we had no guy back to recover...this was a massive coaching blunder by Harbaugh.

Hey Jim, you wear the pants...you should have taken the heat instead of blaming your punter and the refs.

So what happened was a mixture of a really lucky bounce for MSU and coaching preparation.
A "massive coaching blunder", yeah, Harbaugh should have mind-melded with them during the time out...
 
Huh? This is a April Fools joke right?


Come on. Stop. Does any coach think that there punter is going to mishandle the snap? Do you want the punt blocked and then MSU recover and kick a fg? You have to block your opponent first and foremost. That punt wasn't even close to getting blocked until O'Neil bumbled the snap.

The alignment was perfect because O'Neil was running away from the one side and kicking his normal punt. They asked him to do the same thing he has been doing the entire season. I guess I am curious why Chesson was gunning down field but nobody thought the snap was going to be dropped.

In fact...MSU had one extra guy to try and block the punt (no returner) so UM had the primary focus to block.

Reach. Look...MSU won fair and square and was helped by amateur ineptitude. Simple. Putting this on the coaches is a real reach.

Let me go watch the punt again in regards to this gunner who wasn't covered. Why would UM have an uncovered gunner when MSU would have two extra guys trying to block the punt. Even in that scenario...the punter dropped the ball.

Come on. Convince me that the ball would have been blocked if the ball was caught by O'Neil.


RM
 
I call this kind of Monday morning QBing "prescient coaching" as though all variables and possibilities must be accounted for, but can only be discovered post hoc. Prescient coaching is a uniquely American sporting phenomena where the fan can see all after a dozen slow mo's over a course of days and then believes that the coach too should have seen and indeed prepared ahead of time for what the fan's in-depth, internet research turned up a couple days later.
 
In '13 Nick Saban was criticized for not having any speed guys in his field goal unit when they tried the low percentage FG vs. Auburn. He didn't plan for the possible run back. Just didn't occur to him that he might have to tackle a guy after a 50-60 yd missed FG.

I don't think Harbaugh can criticized that much. The only thing...in hindsight....was, since MSU had no return guy back why have any gunners? Keep 10 guys in to block. I don't know if the formation can be changed up that fast. Could MSU have dropped a guy back to field a pooch kick and be able to get a run back? I would think not. Dunno.

The kid dropped the snap. He dropped it. Then he funneled it right into a defenders hands...perfectly while he didn't have to drop a step. It was the most bizarrely botched fumble/TD of all time. He could fumble it 10 times and not have a TD result out of it but 1 or 2 times. The perfect storm of fumbles. Yes, the Spartans did many things right. Most of which was 3 stops and having a timeout to use...But still.....the chances of the fumble, recovery and TD resulting are infinitesimally small.

I'm thinking that play will mean something come both ours and your game vs. OSU.

What happens if OSU beats us then you guys beat OSU (both very possible)? You, us and OSU all 7-1 in the B1G Eastern Division. Who plays in the conference championship game from the East? (assuming all of us win our other games). Total points? Common foes? Coin flip?

BTW....I like Harbaugh a lot more than I like Meyer. I have no problem rooting for you guys when you're playing anybody but us. I never, ever, ever root for an Urban Meyer team. Ever. Even if they play Notre Dame, which is one where I probably just don't watch. I also don't care what anybody else thinks but I also loathed Joe Pa. I always thought he was a throw back creepy guy. I think history confirmed my thoughts.
 
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3 way tie goes to tie breaker in which when everything shakes out it comes down to Bowl Playoff rankings. Which means if the Spartans lose to O$U it's gonna be reeeeal tough for them to get back to the conference Champion Playoff bid unless they start getting some real style points & the Bucknuts have some close calls before getting thumped by Michigan
 
A "massive coaching blunder", yeah, Harbaugh should have mind-melded with them during the time out...

You guys remind me of the politicos who will never EVER pint the finger at their own party.

UM had like 4-5 guys run down the field to field a punt we didn't have a guy returning...you had two gunners out instead of in...including one gunner with no MSU guy covering him...in the words of John L Smith...that's a dang coaching mistake...and Harbaughs tears about the refs even made it more delicious.

Classic Michigan Man...blame his punter and the refs for a coaching blunder. :rolleyes:
 
To
3 way tie goes to tie breaker in which when everything shakes out it comes down to Bowl Playoff rankings. Which means if the Spartans lose to O$U it's gonna be reeeeal tough for them to get back to the conference Champion Playoff bid unless they start getting some real style points & the Bucknuts have some close calls before getting thumped by Michigan

To be sure, if we lose to OSU and you beat them our Final Four outlook is pretty much toast. You guys, with 2 losses are as well. And OSU losing late in season to a 2 loss team also is out.

Who plays in the B1G Championship game in the event of a 3 way tie? The team with the higher ranking? My guess is we will be below OSU if we lose to them, even if you thump them. Hard for you guys to be above either of us unless it's a beat down defeat of the Buckeyes. Even still, you will be shut out of Final 4 with 2 losses, as MSU and OSU will only have 1. Even beating an undefeated Iowa team probably doesn't help. 2 losses and going to the Final 4 is highly unlikely.
 
Here it is: Tiebreaker rules. Looks like it will come down to #5. #6 will kick UM out. Very possible OSU and MSU could be ranked within 1 spot of each other at the end.

1. The records of the three tied teams will be compared against each other.
2. The records of the three tied teams will be compared within their division.
3. The records of the three teams will be compared against the next highest placed teams in their division in order of finish (4, 5, 6, and 7).
4. The records of the three teams will be compared against all common conference opponents.
5. The highest ranked team in the first College Football Playoff poll following the completion of Big Ten regular season conference play shall be the representative in the Big Ten Championship Game, unless the two highest ranked tied teams are ranked within one spot of each other in the College Football Playoff poll. In this case, the head-to-head results of the top two ranked tied teams shall determine the representative in the Big Ten Championship Game.
6. The team with the best overall winning percentage [excluding exempted games] shall be the representative.
7. The representative will be chosen by random draw.
 
"The black line drawn is done by the tv networks...it is a guide to use at home, but hardly the official los."

No one said it was the official LOS, but that is completely irrelevant in this case as the MSU player had his entire helment accross that line and the UM gunner on the bottom had his toe touching that line. Please tell me that you could agree, in that scenario, regardless of where the actual LOS was, someone had to be offside based on simple physics?

"Does any coach think that there punter is going to mishandle the snap? Do you want the punt blocked and then MSU recover and kick a fg? You have to block your opponent first and foremost. That punt wasn't even close to getting blocked until O'Neil bumbled the snap."

On your last point, not everyone agrees and I don't really care what a coach 'thinks', I care about what is going to happen or what could happen and what is the highest percentage play for me to choose while myself and my staff are getting paid over 20 million to do so. There simply didn't have to be a punt, as I pointed out. Meanwhile punts get blocked or mishandled weekly. Everyone says just fall on it. The game isn't over in that scenario either. You would rather have a punt mishandled, shanked, blocked, or this miracle, vs running the ball on a 4th and 2 which was 6 seconds away from being the final play of the game? No one cares if Connor Cook could even throw the ball that far into that wind either? What if he gets sacked? What if he fumbles the snap, what if the ball falls out of his hands while throwing?

"Putting this on the coaches is a real reach"? I'll give you 2 similar examples, how it plays out hypothetically, and all you need to tell me is whether the outcome can be 'put on the coaches':
1) Same field position, but with a 1:24 left in the game. Michigan runs the same off left tackle play, Smith Fumbles, MSU recovers. MSU later goes on to Win.
2) Same time, 1:47, field position is the MSU 30. Same plays are run. Same time is left, 10 seconds at the MSU 22. Michigan Punts, same result, TD MSU.

"I call this kind of Monday morning QBing "prescient coaching" as though all variables and possibilities must be accounted for, but can only be discovered post hoc."

Sorry, but that's total BS. This staff is making millions of dollars collectively, and a child can subtract 107 - 80 = 27 / 4 = 6.75 seconds per play. They also know the width of the field, the approximate amount of time the runs they were going to attempt would use game time, etc. For instance, had you asked any of us, including yourself, do you think Michigan can run out the clock with 4 runs in between the tackles while gaining 8 yards? Most knowledgeable fans would have guessed no, and you would have seen estimates between 16 seconds (too low) and 25 seconds (a bit on the high side). Again, these are for BETWEEN the T runs where the odds of being stripped are much greater than sideline to sideline sweeps losing 5 to 7 yards each. Again, that leaves 11 seconds worst case, 2 seconds best case. We all know this as knowledgeable fans, right?

"Then he funneled it right into a defenders hands...perfectly while he didn't have to drop a step. It was the most bizarrely botched fumble/TD of all time. He could fumble it 10 times and not have a TD result out of it but 1 or 2 times. The perfect storm of fumbles."
Agreed 100%.

"UM had like 4-5 guys run down the field to field a punt we didn't have a guy returning...you had two gunners out instead of in...including one gunner with no MSU guy covering him...in the words of John L Smith...that's a dang coaching mistake...and Harbaughs tears about the refs even made it more delicious."

How much 'internet research' did you have to do to come up with all that logic and fact ;-)!
 
I call this kind of Monday morning QBing "prescient coaching" as though all variables and possibilities must be accounted for, but can only be discovered post hoc. Prescient coaching is a uniquely American sporting phenomena where the fan can see all after a dozen slow mo's over a course of days and then believes that the coach too should have seen and indeed prepared ahead of time for what the fan's in-depth, internet research turned up a couple days later.

Both Harbaugh and Baxter are A+ coaches. On that play, they were both "F" coaches. I am diehard as they come but I am a realist. On related notes to the IDIOT little brothers on this thread/board. The officiating was beyond atrocious, including three penalties by State on the last play. This last play was worse than 2001 and 1990, two other games where MSU won only because of ref f-ups on the last play.

In games that simply end, the right way, it is easy to say that refs screwed up but things generally even out. For instance "little brothers", when Sparty won in 84, 87, 93, 99, 08, 09, 10,11,13,and 14, the calls may or may not have been exactly even, but even in the close games in 87, 99, and 09, there was nothing glaring, especially near the end or AT The end of the game that was atrocious. Fair and square, State won. The other three games, including Saturday were stolen from UM. End of story.
 
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